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Responding to (1Y)-X-(2Y)-? with 4441

#1 User is offline   JLilly 

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Posted 2017-August-04, 16:55

Hi all,

You're fourth seat; the bidding goes: (1Y)-X-(2Y)-?. If you have 4441 (singleton in opps' suit), would a double of your own be interpreted as showing too much strength to pass and asking partner (original doubler) to name a suit of their own? Would it be seen to deny a four-card major biddable at the 2 level in the event that it's not game-forcingly strong? Is the difference between this double and a cue-bid a matter of strength, or would a cue-bid be Michaels? Or if you're 4441 with less than game-forcing strength should you just bid your cheapest major?

Thanks
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#2 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2017-August-04, 17:32

It depends a lot on what suit Y is.

Over a minor, to me the double is initially implying 4-4 in the majors, any strength (pass/raise to appropriate level later) and asking partner to pick (since he may well only be 43 in the majors). Cue would be other hand types.

Over hearts, typically it implies minors, just bid 2s with spades. Over x partner can bid 2s looking to play a 4-3 possibly, you can pull with both minors if you really don't want to play spades.

Over spades, probably default assumption is minors. A non standard advanced trick, unknown to most all lower level players, requires discussion, is to have 1s-x-2s-2nt show 4 hearts and another (or 5 cd hearts almost worth 4H). Then doubler can bid hearts with hearts and scramble to minor otherwise (if responder bids hearts over the minor then 5+ H and inv to 4). Or one could reverse the meanings of x/2nt.

If you are playing with someone ancient, who has never learned "responsive doubles", it's conceivable that 4th hand's double will be considered penalty (no one decent plays it this way anymore).
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#3 User is offline   JLilly 

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Posted 2017-August-04, 18:20

View PostStephen Tu, on 2017-August-04, 17:32, said:

It depends a lot on what suit Y is.

Over a minor, to me the double is initially implying 4-4 in the majors, any strength (pass/raise to appropriate level later) and asking partner to pick (since he may well only be 43 in the majors). Cue would be other hand types.

Over hearts, typically it implies minors, just bid 2s with spades. Over x partner can bid 2s looking to play a 4-3 possibly, you can pull with both minors if you really don't want to play spades.

Over spades, probably default assumption is minors. A non standard advanced trick, unknown to most all lower level players, requires discussion, is to have 1s-x-2s-2nt show 4 hearts and another (or 5 cd hearts almost worth 4H). Then doubler can bid hearts with hearts and scramble to minor otherwise (if responder bids hearts over the minor then 5+ H and inv to 4). Or one could reverse the meanings of x/2nt.

If you are playing with someone ancient, who has never learned "responsive doubles", it's conceivable that 4th hand's double will be considered penalty (no one decent plays it this way anymore).


Thanks, Stephen. Over spades, absent an agreement about the advanced trick you proposed, why would the second double be seen as minors rather than as a negative double showing exactly four hearts (5+ hearts would bid 3H)?
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#4 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2017-August-04, 20:06

don't know that's just my impression, some players are fairly adamant about having four cards other major to takeout double so they get away with just bidding hearts I guess. Established partnership I always try to get the 2nt trick in play, as there are a lot of 13(54) hands on which I'd want to double.
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#5 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2017-August-05, 02:30

+1 for Stephen

As he said, if Y is a major and you have the other one, just bid it as partner has promised it (or has substabtial extras). So X is for minors.
You can use it also to show "3 1/2" in other major (X and pulling partner 3m to major shows more than 3M direct, or if you have spades, shows 8-10 and 4 cards only, as with 8-10 and 5 you'd jump, but the length ambiguity cannot be solved with H who are cheaper!).

Over minor, X shows majors for partner to pick the right suit. And presumably less than a cue bid (that wouldn't necessary promiss majors eg AKx QJx Qxx xx over clubs).
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#6 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-August-05, 03:09

There are 6 basic hand types and 5 calls so to me it makes much more sense to have double pull double-duty than 2NT. There are a number of ways of organising the responses but the most natural is probably for X to cover + a minor and 2NT to be + . Over a responsive double, the initial doubler can bid 2NT to show a preference for diamonds (or use 2NT to ask which minor suit is held, if preferred, though that is not so good for 1444). Seems easier than using X for minors and 2NT for + minor, no?
(-: Zel :-)
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#7 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2017-August-05, 15:37

View PostStephen Tu, on 2017-August-04, 17:32, said:

It depends a lot on what suit Y is.

Over a minor, to me the double is initially implying 4-4 in the majors, any strength (pass/raise to appropriate level later) and asking partner to pick (since he may well only be 43 in the majors). Cue would be other hand types.

Over hearts, typically it implies minors, just bid 2s with spades. Over x partner can bid 2s looking to play a 4-3 possibly, you can pull with both minors if you really don't want to play spades.

Over spades, probably default assumption is minors. A non standard advanced trick, unknown to most all lower level players, requires discussion, is to have 1s-x-2s-2nt show 4 hearts and another (or 5 cd hearts almost worth 4H). Then doubler can bid hearts with hearts and scramble to minor otherwise (if responder bids hearts over the minor then 5+ H and inv to 4). Or one could reverse the meanings of x/2nt.

If you are playing with someone ancient, who has never learned "responsive doubles", it's conceivable that 4th hand's double will be considered penalty (no one decent plays it this way anymore).


Personally, over (1M) X (2M), I like 2NT to be good-bad. Otherwise, you have no good way to distinguish invite hand types from competitive ones, and with the prevalence of sub-minimum major raises after Xs, this is important. What about you?

Cheers,
Mike
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#8 User is offline   RD350LC 

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Posted 2017-August-05, 17:28

View PostStephen Tu, on 2017-August-04, 17:32, said:

It depends a lot on what suit Y is.

Over a minor, to me the double is initially implying 4-4 in the majors, any strength (pass/raise to appropriate level later) and asking partner to pick (since he may well only be 43 in the majors). Cue would be other hand types.

Over hearts, typically it implies minors, just bid 2s with spades. Over x partner can bid 2s looking to play a 4-3 possibly, you can pull with both minors if you really don't want to play spades.

Over spades, probably default assumption is minors. A non standard advanced trick, unknown to most all lower level players, requires discussion, is to have 1s-x-2s-2nt show 4 hearts and another (or 5 cd hearts almost worth 4H). Then doubler can bid hearts with hearts and scramble to minor otherwise (if responder bids hearts over the minor then 5+ H and inv to 4). Or one could reverse the meanings of x/2nt.

If you are playing with someone ancient, who has never learned "responsive doubles", it's conceivable that 4th hand's double will be considered penalty (no one decent plays it this way anymore).

True enough, all good players would play it as responsive. BUT, I have seen (VERY POOR) players who don't even know what a takeout double is.
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#9 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2017-August-05, 19:52

View Postmiamijd, on 2017-August-05, 15:37, said:

Personally, over (1M) X (2M), I like 2NT to be good-bad. Otherwise, you have no good way to distinguish invite hand types from competitive ones, and with the prevalence of sub-minimum major raises after Xs, this is important. What about you?

To me, plus scores are important, and it's a lot easier to go plus in an 8 cd fit than a 7 card fit at the 3 level. I always feel like inviting is a really narrow range of hands vs the range where you just want to compete for partial so I will never prioritize invites over other uses. I tend to follow the Woolsey school of game tries, bid game and try to make it. Sometimes if you just make the competitive bid, partner raises game anyway. Sometimes if you overbid a bit and just bid game partner was accepting anyway. Sometimes if you overbid, opps were competing to 3s and it works as a sacrifice because they were making. Basically making an invite, partner declines, 3 is the limit, they make only 2s is a narrow target.

Using the 2nt as one of the scramble gadgets does still allow you to invite with 5 cd hearts. It might be harder to get to 3nt holding values plus a minor, but with the opps having usu 17/18 even with a light raise, fit in a 5-3, tempo of the lead, and opening bidder likely to have side entries, I don't think you are getting to enough of these making to compensate for the bad 4-3 fits from having to guess which suit to compete in.
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#10 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-August-06, 10:14

Does not it all depend upon your HCP holding and where /how are those distributed ?
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