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Michaels with a strong hand

#1 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2017-July-26, 00:57

Yesterday partner bid 1 and an inexperienced RHO, who had 18 HCP and 5 good hearts, something like AKJxx and and 5 goodish diamonds, something like KQxxx, mistakenly bid 3 and they missed game in hearts. Afterwards when they were discussing with us the best way to show overcaller's strength, I suggested Michaels might be something to look at sometime in the future but for now overcaller might make a simple overcall in hearts and hope to show diamonds later.
I have only ever bid Michaels with a weak hand (the strong hand option hasn't arisen), but checking up afterwards I could not see how overcaller could invite game after this sequence. After (1) - 2-(P)-3-(P)-?. Overcaller's partner may have 3 hearts but just 0-3 HCP.
I should add that they play strong jump overcalls. We play intermediate jump overcalls and 'double - then bid" with a stronger hand, so I would probably done that here.
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#2 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-July-26, 02:02

Michael's can be employed using strong hands - either Michael's is a weak 5-5 (c.6-10), or strong 5-5 (16+): intermediate c.11-15 5-5 (except at adverse vulnerability) are usually but not exclusively handled by an overcall. The choice ultimately lies with the partnership.

As you indicated in this auction 1 - 2, partner has no way of knowing whether you have a weak or the strong variety, and you have no way of knowing if he is minimum with his bid, or has enough values to press home to game.

Just on a statistical basis, the weak 5-5 hand is likely to happen far, far more often, so personally I'm not keen on using Michael's with strong hands.

So doubling and then bidding s and then s would show this good two suiter better in my opinion.
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#3 User is offline   el mister 

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Posted 2017-July-26, 04:14

If you play it mini/max style as the_badger describes then your strong option needs to be large enough for 4H here to be reasonable.

This takes a bit of discipline - Michaels is such a nice shape-showing bid that people seem to overuse it a lot, certainly at my club people throw it around with abandon. You need clarity over 'we are sacraficing' versus 'we are bidding game to make.'
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#4 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-July-26, 05:16

After (1) - 2 - (P), I like to use a similar structure to Muiderberg if playing split-range Michaels:-
==
2NT = relay, asking for partner's minor and relative strength
... - 3m = m and min
... - 3M = linked m and extras
... - others = strong variety
3 = Pass/correct for partner's minor (partner does something other than P/3 with the strong type)
3 = invitational raise of hearts
3 = to play opposite the weak type
--

It is a bit more complicated if not playing split-range. This is one of the downsides of that approach but advocates (including Justin) believe that the advantages more than compensate.
(-: Zel :-)
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#5 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2017-July-26, 09:04

View PostZelandakh, on 2017-July-26, 05:16, said:

... - 3M = linked m and extras

What does "linked m" mean?
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#6 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-July-26, 09:17

View PostLiversidge, on 2017-July-26, 09:04, said:

What does "linked m" mean?

Sorry, I mean that 3 shows clubs and 3 shows diamonds. In this context is linked to and linked to .
(-: Zel :-)
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#7 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2017-July-26, 09:57

Duplicate
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#8 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2017-July-26, 09:58

View PostZelandakh, on 2017-July-26, 05:16, said:

... - 3m = m and min
... - 3M = linked m and extras
... - others = strong variety


I am making notes on this and am close to getting it. Just two (hopefully) more questions:
I presume 'others' means 4/4?
You say you use this system when playing split ranges, i.e. weak or strong, not intermediate. So if 3m is weak and 'others' is strong, what might 3M show in the way of extras?
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#9 User is online   miamijd 

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Posted 2017-July-26, 23:54

Split range was the norm 40 years ago but nowadays all sorts of 5/5 hands use michaels (the very weak ones pass).

You can't have super precise auctions when the opps open 1M and you are two-suited. You need to identify the right strain quickly and hope you get the level right. Over calling on intermediate hands leaves you horribly placed in a lot of auctions.

After (1s). 2s. Pass a common agreement is

2nt asks for minor but is at least invitational stregth. Opener should not just bid 3m with a good hand.
3c is pass or correct and is weak
Everything else natural

Some folks use 2nt as both a drop in the minor and as the invite bid. Then 3c is clubs
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#10 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-July-27, 07:22

View PostLiversidge, on 2017-July-26, 09:58, said:

I presume 'others' means 4/4?

"Others" might also be 3NT or 4. You can pretty much agree anything you like here providing you can remember it 5 years down the line when it finally comes up! ;)

View PostLiversidge, on 2017-July-26, 09:58, said:

You say you use this system when playing split ranges, i.e. weak or strong, not intermediate. So if 3m is weak and 'others' is strong, what might 3M show in the way of extras?

Although "weak" is a hand type, it still include a fair range of strengths. Splitting this range allows for invites in precisely the same way as a convention like Ogust does over a Weak 2 opening. The actual ranges for the 3 values, weak+min, weak+extras and strong, will vary according to the vulnerability but this is a way of getting back some sort of constructive bidding in an auction where most calls concentrate primarily on competition and obstruction.
(-: Zel :-)
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#11 User is online   miamijd 

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Posted 2017-July-27, 12:09

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