BBO Discussion Forums: playing bridge by gut feeling/instinct. - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2

playing bridge by gut feeling/instinct.

#1 User is offline   polarmatt 

  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 4
  • Joined: 2017-June-28

Posted 2017-July-20, 03:36

Can someone play good bridge solely by playing a ton (like 12 hours a day) and not reading any books on the subject? basically just playing by instinct.
I'm planning on doing this.
0

#2 User is offline   Tramticket 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 489
  • Joined: 2009-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kent (Near London)

Posted 2017-July-20, 04:30

There is plenty that you need to learn and a lifetime is not long enough to do it by trial and error.

Different people have different learning styles. I never went to a single lesson, but I did read a lot. Others find reading books boring, preferring to pick up their bridge knowledge through formal lessons, or through informal interaction with experienced players. There is no right or wrong. Good luck with acquiring your bridge knowledge.
0

#3 User is online   P_Marlowe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,063
  • Joined: 2005-March-18
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2017-July-20, 04:46

View Postpolarmatt, on 2017-July-20, 03:36, said:

Can someone play good bridge solely by playing a ton (like 12 hours a day) and not reading any books on the subject? basically just playing by instinct.
I'm planning on doing this.

you need to reflect on your actions.
Instinct needs to be trained. How you do this is ..., your choice, but by instinct means, you
need to have seen a certain thing or something similar before.
Another point: Bridge is a partnership game, and you need to learn the language of your partners,
if you try to play from scratch, chances are high that you end up playing with peoble who know as
much as you, i.e. learning from them is useless.
If you have prior knowledge in other card games, you may survive card play, but even
here, knowing, what the opponents told you / each other in the auction phase will be
relevant at some point, and you will only be able to understand it, if you learned
the language.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
0

#4 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,511
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2017-July-20, 05:00

View Postpolarmatt, on 2017-July-20, 03:36, said:

Can someone play good bridge solely by playing a ton (like 12 hours a day) and not reading any books on the subject? basically just playing by instinct.
I'm planning on doing this.


You probably can, but what you would need to do is to play with a better partner who will analyse stuff with you after.

You would get more value from slightly less playing and more analysis afterwards even if you don't do it with partner.
0

#5 User is offline   The_Badger 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 797
  • Joined: 2013-January-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England
  • Interests:Bridge, Chess, Film, Literature, Herbal Medicine, Nutrition

Posted 2017-July-20, 05:05

My personal opinion: Playing lots of bridge (as long as you analyse your results - and that is extremely difficult in itself being new to the game) will improve your gut feeling/instinct for the game, but it might only improve your knowledge slightly.

How will know if a bidding sequence was right, a lead was correct, a defence was sound, or a declarer play was accurate without expert/tutorial/bridge literature knowledge? The number of times I have seen players self-congratulate themselves on their wonderful bids and plays without actually realising that what they have done is actually incorrect, and they have got lucky due to some error by their opponents, etc.

Being a chess player, too, the one thing I learnt very quickly early on was that the games that you lost are more valuable than the games you win.

I have been personally tutoring a prizewinning poker player, a friend of mine on here for a couple of years, and while she plays regularly - five times a week or more - and she has good card sense (something I noticed very early on) and is willing to learn new conventions every so often to improve her bidding skills, her overall skill level is still no better than intermediate, in my and her opinion.

Good luck with your bridge, and enjoy the game because, for me, that's the most important aspect.
0

#6 User is online   sfi 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,145
  • Joined: 2009-May-18
  • Location:Oz

Posted 2017-July-20, 05:21

View Postpolarmatt, on 2017-July-20, 03:36, said:

Can someone play good bridge solely by playing a ton (like 12 hours a day) and not reading any books on the subject? basically just playing by instinct.
I'm planning on doing this.


It's one way way to learn, but you're only going to become a good player if you're playing against good opponents. Playing random opponents on BBO will do little more than make you competent.
0

#7 User is offline   el mister 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 217
  • Joined: 2007-August-07

Posted 2017-July-20, 05:43

I don't know abar 12 hours a day, but just playing a ton of bridge would make most people good declarers IMHO. And you wouldn't need to take a particularly systematic or analytical approach, just the basic ability to identify and learn from your mistakes. Think of it as the base miles of a fitness program - if you wanted to compete you'd need to add structure, intervals, periodisation etc, but if you don't do any of that and just go out running, you'll still end up pretty fit.

Bidding and defence is a different story - the partnership dimension means you can't just learn by osmosis here. Just bidding with your gut would yield little progress, and be a giant waste of time if you're talking about sinking serious hours into it.
0

#8 User is offline   steve2005 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,968
  • Joined: 2010-April-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hamilton, Canada
  • Interests:Bridge duh!

Posted 2017-July-20, 06:31

There is a theory that you can become an expert at anything with 10,000 hours of experience.
I think books, lessons and listening to people you can trust will bring quicker results.
Sarcasm is a state of mind
0

#9 User is offline   bravejason 

  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 60
  • Joined: 2015-May-12

Posted 2017-July-20, 07:48

View Poststeve2005, on 2017-July-20, 06:31, said:

There is a theory that you can become an expert at anything with 10,000 hours of experience.

That is a simplification. Much nearer to the mark is 10k hours of quality practice are needed to become expert.
0

#10 User is offline   bravejason 

  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 60
  • Joined: 2015-May-12

Posted 2017-July-20, 07:55

View Postpolarmatt, on 2017-July-20, 03:36, said:

Can someone play good bridge solely by playing a ton (like 12 hours a day) and not reading any books on the subject? basically just playing by instinct.
I'm planning on doing this.


My opinion is that you can become a mediocre to OK player that way, but that is the upper limit. And it will take you much longer to reach that level of play than if you sought to learn prior knowledge via books and instruction. Essentially, you are undertaking an unstructured approach to learning the game and thus will spend a lot of time reinventing the wheel and spending hours/days learning things that could have otherwise been learned in minutes.
0

#11 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,869
  • Joined: 2003-May-14

Posted 2017-July-20, 08:03

In theory it could be done, if you have good card feel and an analytical mind. But it would be woefully inefficient. Reading books to me is 100x faster improvement. A beginner who starts out reading 100 hours and playing zero is IMO going to completely obliterate the one who played 100 hours and read zero. Except maybe for a tiny number of natural card play savants who can figure out the techniques on their own.
0

#12 User is offline   gordontd 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,678
  • Joined: 2009-July-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 2017-July-20, 08:27

View Postbravejason, on 2017-July-20, 07:55, said:

My opinion is that you can become a mediocre to OK player that way, but that is the upper limit. And it will take you much longer to reach that level of play than if you sought to learn prior knowledge via books and instruction. Essentially, you are undertaking an unstructured approach to learning the game and thus will spend a lot of time reinventing the wheel and spending hours/days learning things that could have otherwise been learned in minutes.

I'm reminded of Terence Reese's reply to a player who proudly told him they had never read a bridge book - "Yes, I can tell."
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
0

#13 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,908
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2017-July-20, 08:33

I learned to bid with a Goren wheel when when I was a child. This was a good route to eventually internalise the concepts thereon,

But the system we used was very simple; today's methods are much more complicated. Partners will expect you to play eg Jacoby transfers. You will not be able to do this without either reading about the continuations or discussing them with your partner. This will be true for a lot of areas of bidding.

For defence, you have to agree leads and signals with partner. The rest you can learn by experience, but much more quickly if followed by analysis as mentioned above.

For declarer play it is important that you learn to use clues from the opponents' bidding or lack thereof, and also from their defence. The former will be aided by their telling you their methods, but ether inferences you can make frump this, and the clues from their defence can be learned by experience. Techniques like endplays and squeezes will take hugely more time without reading and becoming familiar with them.

You can, of course, benefit from analysing the hand records by yourself to discover what worked or didn't work and why,, but with no experience you will not know what to look for, or which outcomes were due to skill and which to luck.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#14 User is offline   johnu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,521
  • Joined: 2008-September-10

Posted 2017-July-20, 13:12

View Postpolarmatt, on 2017-July-20, 03:36, said:

Can someone play good bridge solely by playing a ton (like 12 hours a day) and not reading any books on the subject? basically just playing by instinct.
I'm planning on doing this.


In case you have noticed, bridge is a partnership game. Unless you are playing with robots, your partner has to be on the same page about bidding and defensive carding. You won't be successful unless you can be a good partner. Even playing with robots, you need to pick the right bids based on the robot bidding system.

If you can analyze your bidding and play mistakes, and recognize whether you or partner is at fault for bad results, then maybe. Good players who haven't read many (or any) bridge books generally improve by playing with better players who can mentor them.
0

#15 User is offline   ahydra 

  • AQT92 AQ --- QJ6532
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,343
  • Joined: 2009-September-09
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2017-July-20, 17:15

A director at my old club back in the UK and her partner are like that - just playing on instinct rather than counting the hand etc. They are good players, both Grand Masters, but would never get anywhere close to expert level. I think this is quite representative - I'd say one simply can't get to expert level without studying some advanced techniques, particularly in card play, and developing a detailed set of partnership understandings.

ahydra
0

#16 User is offline   gszes 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,053
  • Joined: 2011-February-12

Posted 2017-July-20, 17:47

IMHO FORGETABOUTIT Please PLEASE do not waste the time of the people you are going to play with/against trying to get a FEEL for the game. I have no clue how much you think you already know but the amount of information is so huge that even the best programmers in the world have been unable to effectively teach robots how to bid well. Those programmers have the tremendous advantage of KNOWING what is right and they still cannot effectively create programs that successfully mimic decent bidding. I do believe over time you could become an effective declarer and possibly even a fair defender but even then w/o the ability to understand signalling etc. you (and your poor partners) will be at a significant disadvantage. Go to www.BILBRIDGE.com and join the club there. Take advantage of the mountains of information in their library and ask for a FREE mentor who will be happy to get you started with the basics and hopefully give you the passion needed to delve into the more advanced material needed to progress. Enjoy the game and try to avoid taking away the enjoyment of your future partners by being totally clueless for a LONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG time.
1

#17 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,036
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2017-July-21, 00:55

View Postpolarmatt, on 2017-July-20, 03:36, said:

Can someone play good bridge solely by playing a ton (like 12 hours a day) and not reading any books on the subject? basically just playing by instinct. I'm planning on doing this.

We all know successful Bridge-players who seem to have a natural card-sense and say that they've never read a Bridge-book.

But it's hard to become a top-expert who can recognize the opportunities for complex squeezes, coups, and endplays, without reading appropriate material. Also it's much easier to develop bidding and defensive rapport with partner, if you base your understandings on mutually accessible literature.

Nowadays. however, I think you could just rely on web-content (rather than hard-copy). For exam[le, discussion groups like this.
1

#18 User is offline   The_Badger 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 797
  • Joined: 2013-January-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England
  • Interests:Bridge, Chess, Film, Literature, Herbal Medicine, Nutrition

Posted 2017-July-21, 02:18

View Postnige1, on 2017-July-21, 00:55, said:

We all know successful Bridge-players who seem to have a natural card-sense and say that they've never read a Bridge-book.

But it's hard to become a top-expert who can recognize the opportunities for complex squeezes, coups, and endplays, without reading appropriate material. Also it's much easier to develop bidding and defensive rapport with partner, if you base your understandings on mutually accessible literature.

Nowadays. however, I think you could just rely on web-content (rather than hard-copy). For example, discussion groups like this.


Nige1's right. There is enough stuff online now that it's possible to become a competent player by using that, but the problem is sifting it to decide what's what, and what's relevant for you.

Bridge has a conventional language all of its own. For example (taken from an actual advanced player's profile)

5533,invmin,nt15-17/20-22alltrnfs,gerb
w2's,Wjs,2clstr.neg&suppX,dont,unnt
lav.sign,RKC14-03

It's similar to learning a foreign language in a way, I suppose. You can get by with parts of it, but being competent enough to be fluent in it probably needs to be learnt in bite-sized chunks, and plenty of bite-sized chunks too. Though many, many players can have a good enough bridge game without being fluent in it and by getting by with parts of it.
0

#19 User is offline   GrahamJson 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 387
  • Joined: 2014-October-11

Posted 2017-July-21, 03:42

My advice is:

1/ Keep things simple until you have mastered the basics. Looks S of complex conventions will not make you a good player.
2/ If you are playing on BBO look at your hand records after each session, including your good scores as well as the bad. You may find that you were lucky with some good scores, or maybe the oppo just misplayed. Check that you took the best line and look for any clues that you may have missed (this is easier to do against good players).
3/ Read, read and read again. But again, don't concentrate on conventions, concentrate on hand evaluation, play and defence.
4/ When you have reached a reasonable standard read "Practical bidding and practical play" by Terence Reece. Some of the bidding may not follow modern methods but it is a classic in showing you how to think. It goes into areas that few other books cover, such as what you can deduce from opponents discards.

Good luck.
0

#20 User is offline   GrahamJson 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 387
  • Joined: 2014-October-11

Posted 2017-July-21, 03:47

Auto correct has been at it again...Lots of complex conventions...
0

Share this topic:


  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2


Fast Reply

  

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users