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Turbo - Odd or Even which is better

#1 User is offline   dokoko 

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Posted 2017-July-18, 11:24

I started playing Kickback Turbo with my regular partner several months ago.

This is a method combining cuebidding and KC showing. A special bid in a cuebidding sequence is defined as "Turbo bid"; this bid shows (depending on agreement) an even or an odd number of keycards. A cuebid bypassing the Turbo bid shows the other parity and a specific control. The original version (by Fantunes) used 4NT as the Turbo bid, today AFAIK 4Trump+1 is more popular.

Other things being equal, it is immateriel which parity is shown by the Turbo bid. But experience tells that in bridge other things are rarely equal. I wonder whether there are technical reasons to prefer one option to the other.

You are invited to share your ideas and/or experiences.
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#2 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2017-July-18, 12:50

View Postdokoko, on 2017-July-18, 11:24, said:

I started playing Kickback Turbo with my regular partner several months ago.

This is a method combining cuebidding and KC showing. A special bid in a cuebidding sequence is defined as "Turbo bid"; this bid shows (depending on agreement) an even or an odd number of keycards. A cuebid bypassing the Turbo bid shows the other parity and a specific control. The original version (by Fantunes) used 4NT as the Turbo bid, today AFAIK 4Trump+1 is more popular.

Other things being equal, it is immateriel which parity is shown by the Turbo bid. But experience tells that in bridge other things are rarely equal. I wonder whether there are technical reasons to prefer one option to the other.

You are invited to share your ideas and/or experiences.

the lowest bid should have the highest frequency.
asking partner about key cards implies, that we expect him
to have keycards.
Usually the stronger hand will ask, hence you will have the
highest freq. going to 1, followed by 2.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#3 User is offline   spotlight7 

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Posted 2017-July-18, 18:14

Bidding 4N in Turbo does not ask, it shows an even number of keycards.

Bidding above 4N shows an odd number of keycards
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#4 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2017-July-19, 12:00

They say that what goes around comes around. From the description above Turbo sounds remarkably like the Culbertson 4NT bid used in the 1930s. Maybe Culbertson Asking Bids (which I have played many, many years ago) will make a comeback soon.
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#5 User is offline   dokoko 

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Posted 2017-July-19, 15:50

View Postspotlight7, on 2017-July-18, 18:14, said:

Bidding 4N in Turbo does not ask, it shows an even number of keycards.

Bidding above 4N shows an odd number of keycards


By just giving a very short outline of the method I hoped to attract comments by ppl who are somewhat familiar with the concept. Till now spotlight7 seems to be the only one who has an idea of the method. As i said in my OP, using 4trump+1 (e.g. 4 with a -fit) as the Turbo bid seems far superior to the original version of using 4nt.

The Turbo bid usually is used to show an even number of KC while bidding above shows an odd number (and a control of the bid suit). You might define a "Reverse-Turbo" Convention where the Turbo bid would show an odd number of KC while bidding above would show an even number (and a control).

My question was (and still is): Are there any logical reasons to prefer Turbo to Reverse-Turbo or vice versa?
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#6 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2017-July-19, 16:13

View Postdokoko, on 2017-July-19, 15:50, said:

My question was (and still is): Are there any logical reasons to prefer Turbo to Reverse-Turbo or vice versa?


Memory is by far the biggest reason to play it the same as everyone else does. IMO, far more points are lost in 1430 vs 3041 key card confusion than are gained by the theoretical advantages. I can't really see any advantage in either agreement in Turbo, so I don't want partner struggling to remember which version we agreed.

On a side note, what gains do you see from "Kickback Turbo"? There seems to be a small gain in not giving out quite as much information, for instance about the spade suit when you don't have enough keycards in a heart contract. But I wouldn't think that was enough to claim it's "far superior". What am I missing?
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#7 User is offline   dokoko 

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Posted 2017-July-19, 18:12

View Postsfi, on 2017-July-19, 16:13, said:

On a side note, what gains do you see from "Kickback Turbo"? There seems to be a small gain in not giving out quite as much information, for instance about the spade suit when you don't have enough keycards in a heart contract. But I wouldn't think that was enough to claim it's "far superior". What am I missing?


To make the method work, you need at least one safe cuebid above the Turbo bid to show an odd number of KC (actually you need more than one because your cuebid promises control in the suit).

Example: 4 sets trump, you bid 4, partner bids 4, now what?

4NT=even number of Key Cards
5=sign-off missing heart control

What do you bid with an odd number of KC with or without the queen (there is no safe cue above 4nt)?

With Kickback Turbo: 4 sets trump, you bid 4=even KC or 4=odd+-control or higher=odd, no -control (depending on your hand).
Now partner (lacking a -control as above) will sign-off when -control is missing or not enough KC. If he continues cuebidding, you should find out whether all suits are controlled and if so, the owner of Q (if any) will bid above 5 - thus reaching slam when all suits are controlled and 4KC+Q are present.

The higher the trump suit the smaller this kind of problem.

In fact the main reason to sign-off immediately when you can rule out slam, is that continuing the slam-bidding gives positive info to partner: you can fill all the gaps he has shown so far! The info to opp's is less important.
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#8 User is offline   hamish32 

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Posted 2017-July-19, 18:58

I have been playing Turbo for about 3 years. I think is it superior to Key Card by quite a long way and kick back by a bit.

It takes some time to appreciate all the nuances but once you are used to it you can almost always tell the exact number of Keys because of the prior sequence.

I suggest not using the next step above the trump suit as turbo. keep all 4 minor bids as suit setting. Use 4NT as the turbo bid. the reason is that the key decision is weather or not to go past game. being able to cue the 4 level is key to this - if you set a minor suit as trump you can cue then turbo with 4NT and then decide weather to continue to some slam play 4NT or bid 5m.

use 3NT as a serious slam try when looking in a major - this will clarify the later turbo bid - and assist you to never go past game when looking for slam. The main strength of Turbo is that you know below game whether or not you can make slam. We have not played a 5 level major contract in 2 over years.

We use 4NT to show even. Actually you can generally maneuver so that you decide who will turbo in the auction eg bidding 4 of your minor in a strong sequence to position who cues which suits or bidding 3NT when looking in a major for the same reason. 4NT even seems to come up more often than 5m odd.

we use 5S to ask for the trump Q (or 5H if S is trump) - then 5NT shows the Q, 6 of trump shows no queen and 6 of a new suit shows the Q and an extra sauce of tricks (i.e. if you have a picture in this suit bid the grand) - so 5S implies all the keys. also we use the 5 level to cue and a cue at the 5 level implies all the keys.
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#9 User is offline   hamish32 

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Posted 2017-July-19, 18:58

Take this normal sequence:

1S - 2D
2H - 2S
3D - 3S
3NT - 4C
4D - 4H
4S - ?

Because opener bid 3NT slam is very likely and 4S is a positioning bid. if opener had bid 4NT rather than 4S it would tend to show 4 key cards.

Alternatively if opener had cued their club shortage rather than bid 3NT serious then 4S is a suggestion to play and 4NT would show 2 Key cards. So when opener stops in this game forcing sequence not having bid 3NT serious it suggests 0 or 1 key cards. With 3 Key cards he would probably have used 3NT serious and then let responder move over 4S.

Every sequence will eventually be clear because you have a number of ways to arrive at 4S. But it takes time and practice in a serious partnership to clarify them all.

alternatively take a minor sequence:

1D - 1S
2H - 2NT
3S - ?

Here 4D would set D as trump for cue bidding and any other suit would be a cue for S. 3NT is a suggestion to play. when opener uses turbo because they have shown a strong hand you can assume the higher number if they had the lower number they would bid game:

3S - 4C
4D - 4H
4NT

4NT is 4 because having shown a big hand with only 2 opener bids 4S - responder with 2 can bid 4NT after 4S because openers sequence is strong and they already know we have all the suits stopped and the approximate limit of the hand. with 3 opener would cue an ace at the 5 level because responder has been co-operating in a slam investigation and we have 1st or 2nd in all the suits.

if on the other hand responder want to investigate 6 or 7D:

3S - 4D
4H - 4S
4NT

4NT here is ambiguous it could be 4 it might be 2. if responder looks at his hand and cant tell i.e. he has 1 key card only. then he bids 5D and opener with 4 will cue again or bid 5S suggesting grand slam might be possible and showing 4.
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#10 User is offline   Trick13 

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Posted 2017-July-19, 22:11

View Posthamish32, on 2017-July-19, 18:58, said:

we use 5S to ask for the trump Q (or 5H if S is trump) - then 5NT shows the Q, 6 of trump shows no queen and 6 of a new suit shows the Q and an extra sauce of tricks (i.e. if you have a picture in this suit bid the grand) - so 5S implies all the keys. also we use the 5 level to cue and a cue at the 5 level implies all the keys.


Wouldn't it be more useful after 5S for 5NT to deny the Q of trumps, giving you an opportunity to pass and avoid 6m missing 1 KC + Q of trumps?
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#11 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2017-July-20, 21:20

http://bridgewinners...is-more-likely/

http://www.bridgebas...-reverse-train/

I dont think it matter either way.
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
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#12 User is offline   hamish32 

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Posted 2017-July-20, 23:35

View PostTrick13, on 2017-July-19, 22:11, said:

Wouldn't it be more useful after 5S for 5NT to deny the Q of trumps, giving you an opportunity to pass and avoid 6m missing 1 KC + Q of trumps?


No. You never play in 5NT you play in game or slam (occasionally 4NT rather than 5m). The fun is in positioning the auction so that both players know what's missing. When one player has the Q and partner stops in game they will be confidant they can go further because they will see the dilemma. Unlike Key Card and Kickback this is not an ask-tell situation their is no captain both players have the information to make key decisions at each point. If it makes more sense 5S is a cue expressing the absence of the Q while 5NT is a cue expressing the presence of the Q so that partner can co-operate.

5NT expressing interest in grand showing the Q keeps the 6 level below 6NT free to find grand - we found frequently we needed 1 more card to be sure.

Here is an example played at national congress:

N - S
P - 1D
1S - 2C
3C - 4C
4D - 4H
4S - 5D
5S - 6D
7C

North
AJ94
742
AQ
8654

South
K63
void
KJT742
AKQ7

2C is Gazzilli 3C is 8+ 4C is suit setting
4D 4H 4S are 1st or second cues (we don't cue shortage in suit partner has shown)
5D is TURBO 3 (includes void on this occasion since North cant have 3 aces after passing)

5S asks about trump Q - it is clear to north at this point that we can play 6C - South has bid 5D already knowing we have all the keys because of the auction so 5D is just letting north co-operate in looking for grand. North cant see the trump Q but likes the QD so they use 5S

6D shows the trump Q and asks about the QD. 6D is playable on this hand since North is implying 13 tricks if Q is held so either 6D or Q of S.
7C shows an extra picture in D.
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#13 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2017-July-21, 15:31

South should really learn to show his void.

Here its only because responder got both pointed ace and you have the kings in both of these suit that you can lie with the keycards otherwise turbo would be a major fail.

That is the big drawback of turbo methods compared to regular method is that with a void you are still forced to show keycards if your the one who is going to cross 4Nt.
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
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#14 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2017-July-21, 15:36

Quote

I suggest not using the next step above the trump suit as turbo. keep all 4 minor bids as suit setting. Use 4NT as the turbo bid.


Quote

The main strength of Turbo is that you know below game whether or not you can make slam. We have not played a 5 level major contract in 2 over years.


:lol:
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
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#15 User is offline   hamish32 

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Posted 2017-July-23, 09:24

View Postbenlessard, on 2017-July-21, 15:31, said:

South should really learn to show his void.

Here its only because responder got both pointed ace and you have the kings in both of these suit that you can lie with the keycards otherwise turbo would be a major fail.

That is the big drawback of turbo methods compared to regular method is that with a void you are still forced to show keycards if your the one who is going to cross 4Nt.


Hullo Benoit

I agree; the modified Gazzilli gets us too high too quickly on this hand meaning their is not room to show the void and we are lucky our use of the TURBO method happens to be able to highlight the heart control. However I was more trying to display our use of the 5 and 6 levels is seeking grand slam.
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#16 User is offline   hamish32 

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Posted 2017-July-23, 13:24

View Postbenlessard, on 2017-July-21, 15:36, said:

:lol:


of course we have missed a few slams we might have bid had we risked to venture to the 5 level and we bid 6 a few times where we might have stopped safely at the 5 level out of a refusal to ever play 5.

:lol:

my point is that on hands where partner may expect the higher number being 4 or 3 because of the strength of the previous sequence but in fact you only have 1 or 2 then its best to make a slam try then stop in game. when they look at their hand they will know whether or not to make a move. for example

Qx
KQJTxxx
Axx
x

partner opens a weak NT:

1NT - 3D
3H - ?

3D is a slam try with 6+H & 3H shows 3+H. Its nice to have now 3 ways to arrive at 4H, 3NT being the best, 4C being the middling way and 4H being the worst hands. The worst possible bidding sees you bid 4NT TURBO and have partner with 0 or 1 not know whether to expect 2 or 4.
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#17 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2017-July-23, 16:36

Personally I play various Turbo-oid sequences, but prefer to stick with RKCB for the majors when the 4N bidder is unlimited. Too often when you're looking for small slam, the QT is a crucial card that you can't easily find out about.

As Benoit says, Turbo's biggest drawback (that not even Fantoni-Nunes ever solved - I asked them!) is dealing with voids, especially in the parity-giver's hand.
The "4 is a transfer to 4" award goes to Jinksy - PhilKing
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#18 User is offline   WellSpyder 

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Posted 2017-July-24, 10:40

Like others using this approach, when I use Turbo it is on the basis that 4N shows an even number of keycards and bypassing 4N shows an odd number. I did once read something about certain auctions in which the Italians appeared to reverse the meaning, but I quickly decided that any possible gain would be outweighed by the chances of confusion or forgetting, so I never really got to grips with what the criteria would be for deciding that you were in an auction where reversing the meaning was more efficient.
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#19 User is offline   dokoko 

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Posted 2017-July-30, 08:39

If opener has a very strong hand, what does responder do with one KC (in trumps) and no outside control? Play other methods I guess.
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#20 User is offline   keylime 

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Posted 2017-August-06, 19:26

Turbo doesn't come up that much for Larry and I, but when it happens...4NT is even keycards, 4X is odd, and 5NT promises the queen with even keycards. Normally.
"Champions aren't made in gyms, champions are made from something they have deep inside them - a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill. " - M. Ali
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