BBO Discussion Forums: First official Cheating Case in Turkey! - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

First official Cheating Case in Turkey!

#1 User is offline   MrAce 

  • VIP Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,630
  • Joined: 2009-November-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Houston, TX

Posted 2017-July-17, 14:53

And committee reached a decision and released their decision to public today. Below link is the TBF official site, page where they publish the names and the amount of penalty applied. (2 names from bottom)



http://www.tbricfed....1980&Itemid=210



So what is the case?

Alleged person is the #1 Sponsor player at bridge in Turkey. Mr. Salim Yilankiran. He is a client who hires 4 of the top pros in Turkey over 9 years if I remember correctly. He has a very succesful bridge record, which can be explained due to the names he hired at teams but he also has an impressive success at pair events without those pros. He has been reported and complained many times for his weird but winning plays in defense and while declaring. He was the winner of 2016 masterpoint race in Turkey. The plays he made was so weird that people suspected he either has the hand records somehow or getting help from a kibitzer.

Directors spotted that he always plays with one kibitzer. This kib goes to every tournament, every city he goes and watches his table. So TBF directors decided to monitor the player. They place cameras in two big pair events. And the footage from these events have been watched by top Turkish expert players (Nuri cengiz, Enver Koksoy, Levent Ozgul, Can Berktas, Zafer Senguler) They decided that it was obvious how the player and the kibitzer were communicating, and their code was cracked. So after their judgement, TBF decided to give the case to Discipline Committee to investigate and make a decision. Note that TBF governing members and discipline committee are elected by the votes of delegates from all cities every 4 years and Discipline Committee, once receives the case, judges and decides independently from the TBF governing members. TBF is governed by Turkish Sports Ministery. The appeal to the decision can be made to "Tahkim" (arbitration) and this is the last place that can be appealed inside the country for sportive disputes.

Discipline Committee, after long investigation and listening to the defense Lawyers, found the alleged player guilty of "acting against the ethics and morality of the game and dishonorable behaviour" and sentenced to ban for life from all TBF activities!

TBF did not release the videos yet and waiting for the decision of "Tahkim" since the lawyers of alleged player appealed to the decision. According to what I have been told it is interesting that in their defense there is almost nothing that says why their client is innocent. All they have in hand and focused is that they believe the cameras which are placed without the permission of their client can not be used as a proof because they are illegal.

This is where the argument starts. Lawyers are right according to Turkish Criminal Laws. Other side says TCL does not apply in sport events. Especially due to being related to Turkish Sports Ministery and so many kids are involved in these events, TBF has the right to monitor its matches for the sake and protection of common people.

Another argument is about the sentence itself and life time ban being so harsh.

Third argument is the teammates of the alleged player. All the evidence collected so far are from pair events. Will this affect the team members and the masterpoints?

Tahkim will make the final decision. If Tahkim finds the alleged player guilty, they can still change the length of the sentence (which they probably will because I never seen any athlete or player having a life time ban for doping and/or other violations by sports ministery)
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"





4

#2 User is offline   RedSpawn 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 485
  • Joined: 2017-March-11

Posted 2017-July-17, 14:58

If he has to cheat to dominate this sport, then he must really question his ability as a player. Just sad testament.
0

#3 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,551
  • Joined: 2005-May-16
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2017-July-17, 15:13

As long as there was no "entrapment", wilfull cheating, once dicovered, deserves the harshest punishment possible. If his partners only benefitted from his actions, without knowledge or collusion, they should be exempted from punishment but since they were already paid, their awards and results must be rescinded and the agrieved opponents awarded their just results.
The Grand Design, reflected in the face of Chaos...it's a fluke!
0

#4 User is offline   ggwhiz 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,611
  • Joined: 2008-June-23
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2017-July-17, 15:42

Even if the lifetime ban is reduced Turkish Bridge is showing spine and a couple of other things.
The race may not go to the swift nor the battle to the strong. But that's the way to bet it.
1

#5 User is offline   MrAce 

  • VIP Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,630
  • Joined: 2009-November-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Houston, TX

Posted 2017-July-17, 15:53

View PostAl_U_Card, on 2017-July-17, 15:13, said:

As long as there was no "entrapment", wilfull cheating, once dicovered, deserves the harshest punishment possible. If his partners only benefitted from his actions, without knowledge or collusion, they should be exempted from punishment but since they were already paid, their awards and results must be rescinded and the agrieved opponents awarded their just results.


What do you exactly mean by "entrapment"?
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"





0

#6 User is offline   steve2005 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,703
  • Joined: 2010-April-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hamilton, Canada
  • Interests:Bridge duh!

Posted 2017-July-17, 17:45

Devil's advocate
" According to what I have been told it is interesting that in their defense there is almost nothing that says why their client is innocent. All they have in hand and focused is that they believe the cameras which are placed without the permission of their client can not be used as a proof because they are illegal."

Using a technicality does not mean your guilty. Not attempting to show evidence of innocence does not show guilt. Maybe it does in Turkey I don't know Turkish law. In North America it doesn't by law and there are innocent people in jail who's lawyer's didn't attempt to prove their innocence.
Sarcasm is a state of mind
0

#7 User is offline   MrAce 

  • VIP Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,630
  • Joined: 2009-November-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Houston, TX

Posted 2017-July-17, 19:43

View Poststeve2005, on 2017-July-17, 17:45, said:

Devil's advocate
" According to what I have been told it is interesting that in their defense there is almost nothing that says why their client is innocent. All they have in hand and focused is that they believe the cameras which are placed without the permission of their client can not be used as a proof because they are illegal."

Using a technicality does not mean your guilty. Not attempting to show evidence of innocence does not show guilt. Maybe it does in Turkey I don't know Turkish law. In North America it doesn't by law and there are innocent people in jail who's lawyer's didn't attempt to prove their innocence.


You are right, of course, not attempting to show evidence of innocence does not mean you are guilty in Turkey as well. That was my own personal observation. Of course his lawyers will use any technicality they can in order to win the case.


But here is an example case in Turkey (I do not know how it works in other countries) : A business man violated the law and lost a lot of money for this being published. He then decided to sue the people (his partners) because the evidence that they used for proving his violation was obtained illegally in technical terms. The court told the businessman that he is right that prosecutors could not use this evidence as a proof if they want to sue him, but he will not be reimbursed for his loss because despite the evidence being obtained illegally, it was not performed in order to trap him. It was real that he broke the law, no doubt. And that was the real reason for his loss, not the evidence that was obtained technically illegally.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"





0

#8 User is offline   The_Badger 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 404
  • Joined: 2013-January-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England
  • Interests:Bridge, Chess, Film, Literature, Herbal Medicine, Nutrition

Posted 2017-July-17, 23:31

Very interesting, Timo. But cheats are cheats the world over. Some are totally incorrigible. Exhibit pathological behaviour. Sadly I have a friend - perhaps the word 'acquaintance' would be more apt these days - who cannot stop defrauding people. Pure greed. And instead of finally holding their hands up and admitting their guilt will do everything in their power to justify their obscene behaviour.

I am not advocating finding people guilty until proved innocent, but what exactly could the Turkish Bridge Federation do other than monitor this individual by installing video cameras? They have a duty of care to all the other honest players in their Federation.

I do believe that people should be given human rights, but I also believe that those people that have committed human wrongs shouldn't be afforded the same rights as the people who behave lawfully, and thankfully we are in the vast majority.

It would be a travesty that this case be dismissed on a technicality that using CCTV in this case is deemed illegal. Every day I am monitored on CCTV in the city that I live, and I have no problem with that as I go about my business in a lawful manner.
0

#9 User is offline   wank 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,678
  • Joined: 2008-July-13

Posted 2017-July-18, 03:11

i have a little more sympathy for the gentleman involved. considering how high the standard is in turkey with the plethora of experts and world class players, the pressure must be immense.
5

#10 User is offline   barmar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 15,993
  • Joined: 2004-August-21
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2017-July-18, 09:23

View PostThe_Badger, on 2017-July-17, 23:31, said:

I am not advocating finding people guilty until proved innocent, but what exactly could the Turkish Bridge Federation do other than monitor this individual by installing video cameras? They have a duty of care to all the other honest players in their Federation.

There are situations where privacy rights trump the right to collect evidence.

For instance, in many states in the US, there's a law that you can only record a conversation if both parties are aware that it's being recorded (that's why when you call customer service numbers, you often hear a recording warning you that the call is being recorded for training and quality control purposes). And absent a warrant, the police can't violate this to try to get evidence against you.

So these lawyers appear to be arguing that his privacy rights prohibit covert recordings like these, and they can't be used as evidence against him.

ACBL tournament conditions of contest make it clear that the league reserves the right to record the games, and by playing in them you agree to that surveillance. Perhaps the TBF erred in doing this secretly.

#11 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,551
  • Joined: 2005-May-16
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2017-July-18, 15:44

View PostMrAce, on 2017-July-17, 15:53, said:

What do you exactly mean by "entrapment"?

Anything that relates to organizers (or sponsors or any others) preparing a "trap" by serruptitiously offering incentives to cheat (even if to catch a cheater). Cheating must be clearly the issue of one or more person's volition to avoid or transgress the rules of fair play.
The Grand Design, reflected in the face of Chaos...it's a fluke!
0

#12 User is offline   MrAce 

  • VIP Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,630
  • Joined: 2009-November-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Houston, TX

Posted 2017-July-18, 20:08

View PostAl_U_Card, on 2017-July-18, 15:44, said:

Anything that relates to organizers (or sponsors or any others) preparing a "trap" by serruptitiously offering incentives to cheat (even if to catch a cheater). Cheating must be clearly the issue of one or more person's volition to avoid or transgress the rules of fair play.


Ok ty
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"





0

#13 User is offline   Kaitlyn S 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,057
  • Joined: 2016-July-31
  • Gender:Female

Posted 2017-July-18, 22:12

View PostAl_U_Card, on 2017-July-18, 15:44, said:

Anything that relates to organizers (or sponsors or any others) preparing a "trap" by serruptitiously offering incentives to cheat (even if to catch a cheater). Cheating must be clearly the issue of one or more person's volition to avoid or transgress the rules of fair play.
I'm not sure "incentives" is the right word here; the incentive to cheat usually is the higher pay that a professional can earn if he wins more often; and I wouldn't call someone cheating because you offered him a bigger payday for winning "entrapment".

In my mind, the following are examples of entrapment:

(1) The police leaving an unattended suitcase at a busy airport and then arresting the person who steals it (by the way, I think this should be perfectly legal but probably very few agree with me and I don't think the prosecution could ever beat the "entrapment" defense)

(2) A female cop acting provocatively on a street corner that prostitutes normally congregate and arresting the john that offers money for sex

(3) Looking like you want to buy drugs and then arresting the person who sells them to you

From these examples, it appears that the only way you could entrap a bridge cheater is to partner him and suggest cheating yourself.
1

#14 User is offline   The_Badger 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 404
  • Joined: 2013-January-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England
  • Interests:Bridge, Chess, Film, Literature, Herbal Medicine, Nutrition

Posted 2017-July-18, 23:21

View Postwank, on 2017-July-18, 03:11, said:

i have a little more sympathy for the gentleman involved. considering how high the standard is in turkey with the plethora of experts and world class players, the pressure must be immense.


Yes, Turkish players have a real passion for our game (and that's good), and +1 for acknowledging that. Furthermore: Well done wank! This vote means you reach the 1000 reputation mark on BBO in fewer than 2700 posts. Now that is world class :)
0

#15 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,551
  • Joined: 2005-May-16
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2017-July-19, 06:57

In team play, the teammates of the cheaters knew(?) Suspected (?) Didn't have a clue (?) That their results, when compared and then post-mortemed, had something like "How did you find THAT switch/lead etc."
Perhaps even more severe penalties and stricter supervision is called for?
The Grand Design, reflected in the face of Chaos...it's a fluke!
0

#16 User is offline   MrAce 

  • VIP Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,630
  • Joined: 2009-November-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Houston, TX

Posted 2017-July-19, 10:32

View PostAl_U_Card, on 2017-July-19, 06:57, said:

In team play, the teammates of the cheaters knew(?) Suspected (?) Didn't have a clue (?) That their results, when compared and then post-mortemed, had something like "How did you find THAT switch/lead etc."
Perhaps even more severe penalties and stricter supervision is called for?


Here is the problem with his team matches;


There is no evidence against him at team matches. But despite playing in the most successful team in Turkey, he never attempted to play internationally. He never played in Turkish national team or trials. He almost never played in the rounds of team matches where he would be on vugraph of BBO.

His teammates are very well known 4 people. But the complaints about the weird plays he made are all from pair events. These 4 people (his teammates) are known for being the ethical and honest players.
His kibitzer perhaps could not function well due to screens. (All matches are played with screens in Turkey)
But there are investigation being held for the questions you asked AI_U_Card.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"





0

#17 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 15,653
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2017-July-20, 18:30

View PostThe_Badger, on 2017-July-17, 23:31, said:

I do believe that people should be given human rights, but I also believe that those people that have committed human wrongs shouldn't be afforded the same rights as the people who behave lawfully, and thankfully we are in the vast majority.

There is a fundamental flaw in this line of thought. People don't need to be "given" human rights, they have them intrinsically by virtue of the fact that they are human. The problem is getting other people (and governments) to recognize that fact. As for those who violate someone's rights, that does not eliminate their rights, but it does call into the principle that the violator should be required to make reparations for any damage his violations have caused. There is a potential difficulty here too, of course. What if reparations cannot be made? Murder would be an extreme example.

Is cheating at a card game a violation of human rights?
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

Share this topic:


Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users