# BBO Discussion Forums: Method after exact shape is shown - BBO Discussion Forums

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## Method after exact shape is shown

### #1bgm

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Posted 2017-July-17, 10:16

In a relay system where the exact shape is shown (approximate for extreme shape), what is your (favourite) method to locate the high cards?

And what is your sign-off method?

Thanks for sharing.
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### #2spotlight7

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Posted 2017-July-17, 10:36

The normal method is to use 4D* as puppet to

4H and next pass or sign off in any other suit.

Some use direct bids of 4H-5C as RKC in the suit bid.

One RKC style is to use the 1st step over the RKC bid

as 'non slam suitable' and higher bids show keycards.
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Posted 2017-July-17, 10:41

There are previous BBO forum threads covering this topic. Hope these help.

http://www.bridgebas...-problem-hands/

http://www.bridgebas...61-spiral-scan/

http://www.bridgebas...d-or-singleton/

http://www.bridgebas...or-spiral-scan/
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### #4Zelandakh

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Posted 2017-July-17, 11:15

My method within relays is fairly standard - steps for controls followed by control-showing by suit. You bid the first step where no control is held with the suits ordered from longest to shortest (ie denial cue bidding (DCBs)).

The slightly unusual part is in the relay breaks - if the last bid was 3 or lower, 4 is a puppet to 4, then 4 is RKCB for , 4 is RKCB for and 4NT is RKCB for . A relay break of 4 covers RKCB for and 4M and 5m bids are to play - no need for an end-signal. If the last bid was 3 or 3NT, 4 is needed for the relay so now 4 covers the sign-off in hearts as well as RKCB for , and all a step higher. 4 is naturally now a marionette rather than pure puppet if the other hand is unlimited. The direct 4 is in turn RKCB for clubs and 4/5m cover the sign-offs for those suits.

The main alternative to DCBs is parity control-showing using QPs (A=3, K=2, Q=1). You can look up posts from Adam (awm) and his IMPrecision system for details of these. This system is certainly better if you do not establish general strength within your relays; it is arguable which works best where general strength is already known.

Edit: The_Badger dug out some additional threads while I was posting - perhaps one of the extra ones has the additional information I was thinking of...
(-: Zel :-)
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### #5PrecisionL

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Posted 2017-July-17, 11:43

In our abandoned Ultra Club Relay we used the Italian Beta Asking Bid for controls (A=2, K=1).
Ultra Relay: see Daniel's web page: http://bridgewithdan...stems/Ultra.pdf

C3: Copious Canape - Improved version of Ultra Relay, notes not posted yet.

Scrap heap: Canapé Attack System with Strong and 4-cd Major openings ...

Back to the Future? Using 1 &1 responses to Strong 1 as Positive Exclusion Color Bids.

NOW playing a Mosca (Nightmare-Fantunes like) system with canapé, 11-14 NT with Keri Invites and Bailey 2 bids, & 15+ 1 opener with transfer negatives @ 1-level & transfer positives @ the 2- and 3-levels. Canape after opening 1 or 1 (into a minor suit only). 3/1/17: Adding Nightmare Canape responses to 1 opening.
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### #6bgm

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Posted 2017-July-18, 11:22

Thanks for sharing. Zelandakh has answered the follow up question I want to know - what are the useful relay breaks supplement to the original method?

Currently my friend adopt a very simple scheme, like +1(/2/3) for RKC of the 4+ card suit (from long to short) and on top with a general blackwood, followed up by +2 = spiral scan, +1 = parity scan for the next 3 honors. The queue is the normal: one starting with trump Q, 3 Ks, 3 Qs, 4 Js and the response to parity scan are
+1 = all 3 or none, +2 = 1 or 2+3, +3 = 2 or 1+3, +4 = 3 or 1+2
which requires captain to have at least 1 of the next 3 honors to distinguish the case. The direct bid to game is invitational to slam and 4 is the ES.

What sort of important relay breaks need to consider?

And how do you handle
1) a splinter type problem, where captain has a shortage somewhere which slam is marginal and depends on the wastage?
2) a two running suits + side suits control type slam, where the hand may not have shortage and merely semi-balanced? (It is a difficult hand type)

It seems to me that typical QP+DCB/RKC method usually require you to have a power house, near slam forcing number of QP/HCP to be effective locating the honors.
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### #7foobar

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Posted 2017-July-18, 19:36

bgm, on 2017-July-18, 11:22, said:

Thanks for sharing. Zelandakh has answered the follow up question I want to know - what are the useful relay breaks supplement to the original method?

Currently my friend adopt a very simple scheme, like +1(/2/3) for RKC of the 4+ card suit (from long to short) and on top with a general blackwood, followed up by +2 = spiral scan, +1 = parity scan for the next 3 honors. The queue is the normal: one starting with trump Q, 3 Ks, 3 Qs, 4 Js and the response to parity scan are
+1 = all 3 or none, +2 = 1 or 2+3, +3 = 2 or 1+3, +4 = 3 or 1+2
which requires captain to have at least 1 of the next 3 honors to distinguish the case. The direct bid to game is invitational to slam and 4 is the ES.

What sort of important relay breaks need to consider?

And how do you handle
1) a splinter type problem, where captain has a shortage somewhere which slam is marginal and depends on the wastage?
2) a two running suits + side suits control type slam, where the hand may not have shortage and merely semi-balanced? (It is a difficult hand type)

It seems to me that typical QP+DCB/RKC method usually require you to have a power house, near slam forcing number of QP/HCP to be effective locating the honors.

For #1 (splinter), would recommend reading the relay breaks section in awm's excellent Imprecision document. It outlines a scheme that allows the relay captain to look for QPs outside the advertised short suit.

Not completely sure of the problem in #2, but perhaps some combination of specific suit RKC asks might help?
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