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Method after exact shape is shown

#1 User is offline   bgm 

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Posted 2017-July-17, 10:16

In a relay system where the exact shape is shown (approximate for extreme shape), what is your (favourite) method to locate the high cards?

Some will adopt different kinds of RKCB, QP ask/ control ask, follow by DCB/spiral scan etc.

And what is your sign-off method?

Thanks for sharing.
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#2 User is offline   spotlight7 

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Posted 2017-July-17, 10:36

The normal method is to use 4D* as puppet to

4H and next pass or sign off in any other suit.


Some use direct bids of 4H-5C as RKC in the suit bid.


One RKC style is to use the 1st step over the RKC bid

as 'non slam suitable' and higher bids show keycards.
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#3 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-July-17, 10:41

There are previous BBO forum threads covering this topic. Hope these help.

http://www.bridgebas...-problem-hands/

http://www.bridgebas...61-spiral-scan/

http://www.bridgebas...d-or-singleton/

http://www.bridgebas...or-spiral-scan/
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#4 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-July-17, 11:15

My method within relays is fairly standard - steps for controls followed by control-showing by suit. You bid the first step where no control is held with the suits ordered from longest to shortest (ie denial cue bidding (DCBs)).

The slightly unusual part is in the relay breaks - if the last bid was 3 or lower, 4 is a puppet to 4, then 4 is RKCB for , 4 is RKCB for and 4NT is RKCB for . A relay break of 4 covers RKCB for and 4M and 5m bids are to play - no need for an end-signal. If the last bid was 3 or 3NT, 4 is needed for the relay so now 4 covers the sign-off in hearts as well as RKCB for , and all a step higher. 4 is naturally now a marionette rather than pure puppet if the other hand is unlimited. The direct 4 is in turn RKCB for clubs and 4/5m cover the sign-offs for those suits.

The main alternative to DCBs is parity control-showing using QPs (A=3, K=2, Q=1). You can look up posts from Adam (awm) and his IMPrecision system for details of these. This system is certainly better if you do not establish general strength within your relays; it is arguable which works best where general strength is already known.

Because of relay breaks, you can get multiple slam investigation tools and should certainly build options into the structure. Low level (below 3NT) relay breaks can be used for shortages, stopper asks, suit agreement or to provide more space for RKCB sequences. High level relay breaks can be used for RKCB, QP/control asks (whichever is not your chosen relay scheme), ace asks (Gerber), general slam invites and direct asks for lower honours - K/Q/J. Some of these choices flow from each other - if you use a QP scheme you probably do not need a direct queen ask but using controls, a queen ask becomes extremely helpful. We have had a fair number of threads on the subject so I would suggest first running a search and digging out one of those that has more detail than The_Badger's link. If you cannot find anything, post and I can look myself if I can find a quiet moment.

Edit: The_Badger dug out some additional threads while I was posting - perhaps one of the extra ones has the additional information I was thinking of...
(-: Zel :-)
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#5 User is offline   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2017-July-17, 11:43

In our abandoned Ultra Club Relay we used the Italian Beta Asking Bid for controls (A=2, K=1).
Ultra Relay: see Daniel's web page: http://bridgewithdan...stems/Ultra.pdf

C3: Copious Canape - Improved version of Ultra Relay, notes not posted yet.

Scrap heap: Canapé Attack System with Strong and 4-cd Major openings ...

Back to the Future? Using 1 &1 responses to Strong 1 as Positive Exclusion Color Bids.

NOW playing a Mosca (Nightmare-Fantunes like) system with canapé, 11-14 NT with Keri Invites and Bailey 2 bids, & 15+ 1 opener with transfer negatives @ 1-level & transfer positives @ the 2- and 3-levels. Canape after opening 1 or 1 (into a minor suit only). 3/1/17: Adding Nightmare Canape responses to 1 opening.
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#6 User is offline   bgm 

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Posted 2017-July-18, 11:22

Thanks for sharing. Zelandakh has answered the follow up question I want to know - what are the useful relay breaks supplement to the original method?

Currently my friend adopt a very simple scheme, like +1(/2/3) for RKC of the 4+ card suit (from long to short) and on top with a general blackwood, followed up by +2 = spiral scan, +1 = parity scan for the next 3 honors. The queue is the normal: one starting with trump Q, 3 Ks, 3 Qs, 4 Js and the response to parity scan are
+1 = all 3 or none, +2 = 1 or 2+3, +3 = 2 or 1+3, +4 = 3 or 1+2
which requires captain to have at least 1 of the next 3 honors to distinguish the case. The direct bid to game is invitational to slam and 4 is the ES.

What sort of important relay breaks need to consider?


And how do you handle
1) a splinter type problem, where captain has a shortage somewhere which slam is marginal and depends on the wastage?
2) a two running suits + side suits control type slam, where the hand may not have shortage and merely semi-balanced? (It is a difficult hand type)

It seems to me that typical QP+DCB/RKC method usually require you to have a power house, near slam forcing number of QP/HCP to be effective locating the honors.
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#7 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2017-July-18, 19:36

 bgm, on 2017-July-18, 11:22, said:

Thanks for sharing. Zelandakh has answered the follow up question I want to know - what are the useful relay breaks supplement to the original method?

Currently my friend adopt a very simple scheme, like +1(/2/3) for RKC of the 4+ card suit (from long to short) and on top with a general blackwood, followed up by +2 = spiral scan, +1 = parity scan for the next 3 honors. The queue is the normal: one starting with trump Q, 3 Ks, 3 Qs, 4 Js and the response to parity scan are
+1 = all 3 or none, +2 = 1 or 2+3, +3 = 2 or 1+3, +4 = 3 or 1+2
which requires captain to have at least 1 of the next 3 honors to distinguish the case. The direct bid to game is invitational to slam and 4 is the ES.

What sort of important relay breaks need to consider?


And how do you handle
1) a splinter type problem, where captain has a shortage somewhere which slam is marginal and depends on the wastage?
2) a two running suits + side suits control type slam, where the hand may not have shortage and merely semi-balanced? (It is a difficult hand type)

It seems to me that typical QP+DCB/RKC method usually require you to have a power house, near slam forcing number of QP/HCP to be effective locating the honors.

For #1 (splinter), would recommend reading the relay breaks section in awm's excellent Imprecision document. It outlines a scheme that allows the relay captain to look for QPs outside the advertised short suit.

Not completely sure of the problem in #2, but perhaps some combination of specific suit RKC asks might help?
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