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2 bids with same meaning is it allowed?

#1 User is offline   sakuragi 

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Posted 2017-July-07, 10:57

you are dealer and pass. lho pass. partner opens 1C. rho pass. your bid
P (P) 1C (P)
?

Both my bid 2C/3C here shows 6-11 with C support. It all depends on my judgement which to bid at the moment.

Is it legal/allowed?
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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-July-07, 11:46

Which jurisdiction ?

In the UK I suspect you have to be able to give some indication how you take that decision as to which to bid, as you will have built up a body of experience in your partnership which is close to a CPU.
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#3 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2017-July-07, 11:49

In theory, I would say yes.

You say you would use judgement? Would you always bid 3 with X points, Y trumps, and a certain distribution?, or would it be a random choice between 2/3. If you are consistent, then a regular partner would/should pick up on a pattern of why one raise or the other was chosen.

Then it becomes a matter of proper disclosure and 6-11 with club support is an inadequate explanation and I would think you have a concealed partnership understanding.
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#4 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-July-07, 11:49

Would depend on the jurisdiction, but I can't imagine any prohibition against this.
Where you might get stuck is when you start using your judgement to make each bid on different type of hands. Then you should be correcting your explanation to reflect this.
It isn't that uncommon for two bids like this to have similar, but one might have longer clubs or side shortness.
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#5 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-July-07, 12:10

If you have two bids with the same (or a similar) meaning, you are wasting a bid (which sounds so obvious I don't know why I am highlighting it.)

Whether it is allowed I don't know, but it's quite unusual in my opinion inasmuch it is at your discretion whether to use one or the other.
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#6 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2017-July-07, 20:03

If you're able to use judgement as to which bid to make, then surely they can't have the same meaning.
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#7 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-July-08, 00:23

View Postsmerriman, on 2017-July-07, 20:03, said:

If you're able to use judgement as to which bid to make, then surely they can't have the same meaning.


Perhaps it is not, strictly speaking, a bridge difference. The decision could be based, for instance, on knowledge of the players; their strength, willingness to compete, maybe even their mannerisms -- were either of their passes reluctant? I think that this still needs to be disclosed, but i am not sure how. It might be better to just have two,convention cards, each with one version of the raise, and decide which card you will use for which opponents.
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#8 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-July-08, 03:02

The choice between 2 calls with the same meaning could depend on form of scoring, vulnerability, or position at the table; but it would still make sense to ascribe a different meaning to the rejected call, in each context.
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#9 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2017-July-08, 03:31

View Postsmerriman, on 2017-July-07, 20:03, said:

If you're able to use judgement as to which bid to make, then surely they can't have the same meaning.

Bad judgement can vary with time.
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#10 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2017-July-08, 04:11

While I might agree that HCP is a blunt instrument for evaluating a hand, I cannot believe that this is in anyway better than inverse raises or even old school raises
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#11 User is offline   xbabarx 

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Posted 2017-July-08, 06:54

2c=inverted minor (pass hand too) 10-11 hcp with 4+ cards support
3c= weak jump 4-6 hcp with 5+ cards support
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#12 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2017-July-08, 07:40

View Postxbabarx, on 2017-July-08, 06:54, said:

2c=inverted minor (pass hand too) 10-11 hcp with 4+ cards support
3c= weak jump 4-6 hcp with 5+ cards support

And with 7-9?
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#13 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-July-08, 08:30

View Postgordontd, on 2017-July-08, 07:40, said:

And with 7-9?


2N if you play this style
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#14 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-July-08, 09:45

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-July-08, 08:30, said:

2N if you play this style


Although 2NT as the weakest raise is more popular.

LOL I wonder what xbabarx bids with 12+.
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#15 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-July-08, 09:58

View PostVampyr, on 2017-July-08, 09:45, said:

Although 2NT as the weakest raise is more popular.

LOL I wonder what xbabarx bids with 12+.


He opened the bidding, was opposite a 3rd seat club
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#16 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2017-July-08, 10:06

View PostVampyr, on 2017-July-08, 09:45, said:

Although 2NT as the weakest raise is more popular.

Indeed, superior in my opinion. I define it as a hand that's too weak to ever want to play 3NT opposite (though 5m might occasionally come into the frame).
Gordon Rainsford
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#17 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-July-08, 10:39

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-July-08, 09:58, said:

He opened the bidding, was opposite a 3rd seat club


Yes, but I thought that "pass hand too" meant that the description was intended to be more general.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#18 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-July-08, 11:36

View PostVampyr, on 2017-July-08, 10:39, said:

Yes, but I thought that "pass hand too" meant that the description was intended to be more general.


I thought he meant the inverted was only 10-11 because it was a passed hand and would be different if it wasn't
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#19 User is offline   aawk 

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Posted 2017-July-08, 12:18

You can make any agreement (good or bad) with your partner and if opponents ask about the difference between a 2 or 3 raise you have to explain that.

And if opponents (during or after the board is finished) are not satisfied they can call the director.
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#20 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-July-09, 02:58

If your LHO asks you or your partner "Then what is the difference between the two" you have to give a full explanation.Like.let us say,"white against red our 3C is 6/9 and our 2C is 10plus when red "
,
.You can't give an explanation that it depends upon your mood.In any tournament you are required to carry your system methods and bid accordingly.The director will ask you to explain the full information that your partner gets from any of your bidsA strong willed director will keep watch on you or even ask an observer to sit at your table."It all depends upon my mood" is little short of misleading the opponents on purpose and that will not be tolerated by any director when exposed.
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