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bidding a grand slam

#21 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2017-June-22, 06:26

Nobody has mentioned whar is, in my view, the main problem with splinter. It doesn't promise a hand this strong!
Give him Ax Ax Akxxxx KQX. That's a minimum 2C opener with maximum wastage. And yet we have tricks to spare in 6Nt.

If I were forced to splinter, I would still bid on over partners 5D signoff. But then have I really gained anything for investigating grand in comparison to just bidding keycard?
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
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#22 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2017-June-22, 08:45

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-June-21, 05:36, said:

Unfortunately partner's hand was KQ, Kxxx, Jxxx, xxx and the grand had no play

Although in this case you will play 6, if instead of xxx you have xx will be 6+1 and in our case 7. This hand is apt for the Reese convention having a self-supporting diamond suit then after 2 by partner you have to bid jumping that is 4 instantly asking for Aces with answer at first negative step 4. Subsequently this conv. statues that ulthetior biddings are for suit informations so: first step losers, second K, third x, fourth A or if denied void sureing fourthemore almost three cards in support. Then 5(=? in suit)- 5NT(=King) and anything costing, 6(=?) has the 6 as answer indicating a singleton. En passant, as you can see, the hand of partner has a maximum as negative answer having KQ in a suit but with four cards and not five and a King in other suit (1.5 quick tricks). This solve the problem if adopted or known and helps to cover this rare but always possible case.
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#23 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-June-22, 09:05

View PostLovera, on 2017-June-22, 08:45, said:

Although in this case you will play 6,

If bid DD yes but CY's point was that this hand would bid identically to the one in the OP and there the poster wanted to be in 7.

View PostLovera, on 2017-June-22, 08:45, said:

This hand is apt for the Reese convention having a self-supporting diamond suit then after 2 by partner you have to bid jumping that is 4 instantly asking for Aces

It is a decent convention and certainly one worth considering with this hand. Unfortunately it is not ideal for a hand with a void so on balance it is probably better not to use it here. It would also not solve the main problem of locating the club position.
(-: Zel :-)
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#24 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2017-June-22, 09:23

View PostZelandakh, on 2017-June-22, 09:05, said:

If bid DD yes but CY's point was that this hand would bid identically to the one in the OP and there the poster wanted to be in 7.


It is a decent convention and certainly one worth considering with this hand. Unfortunately it is not ideal for a hand with a void so on balance it is probably better not to use it here. It would also not solve the main problem of locating the club position.

I used it (many years ago "when i was ..-F. Sinatra-") and ultimately i had to talk about 6NT played by sillafu that is Benito Garozzo telling that the contract could be played in a grand applying it.
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#25 User is offline   Kaitlyn S 

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Posted 2017-June-22, 12:15

View Postcherdano, on 2017-June-22, 06:26, said:

Nobody has mentioned whar is, in my view, the main problem with splinter. It doesn't promise a hand this strong!
Don't you think a splinter to the 5-level shows more than a splinter below game?
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#26 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2017-June-22, 15:15

View PostKaitlyn S, on 2017-June-22, 12:15, said:

Don't you think a splinter to the 5-level shows more than a splinter below game?

5C is still a splinter below our game (5D)!

The range of splinters always depend a bit on the auction. Opposite an unlimited hand, it typically says "worth forcing to game, and by the way I have shortness". (That's how splinters over a 1M opening are typically played.) In other auctions, it says "we can make slam if you have a working minimum". (E.g. any splinter by responder after a 1N opening is typically played like that.)

The given hand is way too strong for either meaning. To put it differently - if we took the K away, would anybody think this hand is too weak to splinter?
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
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#27 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2017-June-22, 16:08

One more point. I think the West hand would be a good splinter after 1D-1H-3D. xx Ax AKxxxx Axx is enough for slam.
2C->3D shows a lot more than that!

I really think those who want to splinter haven't thought this through.
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
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#28 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2017-June-22, 20:55

View Postcherdano, on 2017-June-22, 06:26, said:

Nobody has mentioned whar is, in my view, the main problem with splinter. It doesn't promise a hand this strong!
Give him Ax Ax Akxxxx KQX. That's a minimum 2C opener with maximum wastage. And yet we have tricks to spare in 6Nt.

If I were forced to splinter, I would still bid on over partners 5D signoff. But then have I really gained anything for investigating grand in comparison to just bidding keycard?


The question the original poster asked was how to get to 7 with the given hands. You can splinter; you can bid 4D. Either way, getting to 7 with the hands shown is pretty simple.

Yes, responsder's hand is a little heavy for a splinter, but as you point out, if opener bidss 5D (almost inconceivable), you will continue on.

Incidentally, the hand you showed:

Ax Ax AKxxxx KQx

isn't a 2C opener. You have 20 points and about 7.5 tricks. Not nearly enough. I would open 1D, but if you want to open the "slam-killer bid" (2NT), that's also an option. A 2C opener based on a long minor ought to have at least 9 tricks.

Cheers,
Mike
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#29 User is offline   bravejason 

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Posted 2017-June-22, 21:38

2C 2D (waiting)
3D 4D
4NT 5C (Blackwood-no aces; If West has no H or S controls, they'd be in a tough spot. So bid Blackwood. If West shows the spade Ace, the East small heart can discard on it.).
5NT 6H (Blackwood-2 kings;.)
7D P (Forced to 7D, but it is OK since we have all relevant A and K. If W showed 1 king the contract would be 6D, which is great if W has the Spade K and not as great if it is the Heart K.)

In summary, we'd contract for 7D, but did it thanks to luck by the specific distribution of A's and K's and diamonds being the trump suit,
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#30 User is offline   Kaitlyn S 

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Posted 2017-June-22, 23:18

View Postmiamijd, on 2017-June-22, 20:55, said:

The question the original poster asked was how to get to 7 with the given hands. You can splinter; you can bid 4D. Either way, getting to 7 with the hands shown is pretty simple.
Really? Put this hand pair in a club game and see how many get to seven. Even in Flight A I would expect at least half the pairs not to reach seven.
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#31 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-June-22, 23:23

View Postmiamijd, on 2017-June-22, 20:55, said:

The question the original poster asked was how to get to 7 with the given hands. You can splinter; you can bid 4D. Either way, getting to 7 with the hands shown is pretty simple.

Yes, responsder's hand is a little heavy for a splinter, but as you point out, if opener bidss 5D (almost inconceivable), you will continue on.

Incidentally, the hand you showed:

Ax Ax AKxxxx KQx

isn't a 2C opener. You have 20 points and about 7.5 tricks. Not nearly enough. I would open 1D, but if you want to open the "slam-killer bid" (2NT), that's also an option. A 2C opener based on a long minor ought to have at least 9 tricks.

You are missing Arend's point completely. He deliberately chose a (sub-)minimum hand to illustrate why the OP hand is too strong for a splinter in standard methods. Taking away the K and Q would be more typical. Of course it is easy to construct auctions to a grand slam looking at both hands if you want to play that game. That is not the same thing as a good "at the table" auction though.

More seriously, you trot out phrases like "pretty simple" when both of your recommended auctions include a Last Train slam try at the 6 level. Do you happen to know any beginners that play this? The truth is that this is a grand slam that is not even remotely simple for an N/B pair to reach. By all means post something along the lines of "Here are a couple of auctions that an advanced pair might have on a good day" but please do not belittle the efforts of N/B posters in this forum.
(-: Zel :-)
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#32 User is offline   NickRW 

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Posted 2017-June-23, 05:59

The discussion about whether to splinter or not in this thread is, in one sense, quite academic as it should be noted that the grand is still on if responder had 2 clubs instead of 1, when the splinter would not have been an option anyway. But that a third club scuppers chances. Anyone whose system allows them to differentiate between 1, 2 and 3 clubs deserves their grand.
"Pass is your friend" - my brother in law - who likes to bid a lot.
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#33 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-June-23, 08:23

View PostNickRW, on 2017-June-23, 05:59, said:

The discussion about whether to splinter or not in this thread is, in one sense, quite academic as it should be noted that the grand is still on if responder had 2 clubs instead of 1, when the splinter would not have been an option anyway. But that a third club scuppers chances. Anyone whose system allows them to differentiate between 1, 2 and 3 clubs deserves their grand.


It's even more complicated than that, xx, KQJx, Jxxx, xxx is also plenty, as is A instead of the actual major suit honours with the actual distribution.
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#34 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2017-June-23, 12:15

Hi,

undiscussed 5C is shortage, ... a void, you can argue, if it is Voidwood.
Since the weak hand made the bid, it should not be voidwood, but whatever.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#35 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-June-23, 18:29

Too easy in Super Precision !Which we love to play)
1C(16 plus any)- 2S (8 plus Black suit singleton 4441)
2NT(pl.clarify)-3C
3D-3H (Ace or King of Heart)
4NT-5C (no ace). 4NT is fishing for a possible 7 NT
7D - All Pass
The standard system which the majorty play,also,will reach the contract once responder shows D support and then Heart cue bid.by responder.
The method which we adopt is as follows.
2C-2NT(8 plus no 5 card sui and 1and1/2 or more tricks)
3D- 4D
4NT-5C ( no Ace). 4NT is fishing for a possible 7 NT(who knows !)Else one may bid 7D directly
7D -Pass
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#36 User is offline   MinorKid 

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Posted 2017-August-29, 00:35

----2
2 4
4N 7

4N : RKCB
"A lot of games don't have its depth, this one does."
Bill Gates
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#37 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2017-August-29, 00:56

View Postportia2, on 2017-June-21, 01:36, said:

it's not easy to find material on the follow ups to the 2C (GF) opening. here 2D is relay and 3D show a 5+ card suit. 7D was the optimum contract. how would you bid it?




for a novice player....very very difficult to get to the grand slam with confidence.

I would expect the vast majority of novice players to either miss the grand or just blast at some point.....very very difficult to bid with confidence as a novice.


Most of these comments in this thread are silly just silly when dealing with novice players.....


I would be pleased very pleased if novice players could 1) get to 6d....2) having bid 6d know how to make 6d
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#38 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-August-29, 02:43

View PostMinorKid, on 2017-August-29, 00:35, said:

----2
2 3
4N 7

4N : RKCB

Every N/B player should be taught the 7 response to RKCB, would save a lot of time! While we are at it, perhaps some novices would care to try my auction instead: 1 - 1; 1 - 1NT; 2 - 2; 2 - 2; 2NT - 3; 4 - 4; 7. I would think the two auctions are about equivalent in terms of their level of helpfulness.
(-: Zel :-)
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#39 User is offline   Kapi Blas 

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Posted 2017-September-01, 08:18

2- 2
3 - 4*
4 - 4
5 - 5**
6*** - 7****

* - definitely forcing, might be slam seeking
** - we must realize that we have some serious values, partner didn't bid 4 NT so he is probably looking for some specific cue bid
*** - asking for 3rd round control in
**** - got it!

At the point where our partner bids 5 we only need either Q or doubleton. 6 is obviously asking about 3rd round control in . After all I believe that novice par would never get to 7.
Slam bidding isn't easy and you need to have some good tools, excellent hand evaluation and a lot of imagination to be really good at it. I'm pretty sure that me and my partner would miss that obvious slam.

Edit.

I can't see how can you possibly get to the Grand Slam after bidding 5 as a splinter. You can't check if a responder has K or not.
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