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bidding a grand slam

#1 User is offline   portia2 

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Posted 2017-June-21, 01:36

it's not easy to find material on the follow ups to the 2C (GF) opening. here 2D is relay and 3D show a 5+ card suit. 7D was the optimum contract. how would you bid it?

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#2 User is online   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-June-21, 02:04

With 9 points, opposite a 2 opening, you should be thinking about investigating slams. The first thing for west to do is give partner the excellent news that she has diamond support by raising to 4 (still forcing to game of course).

cue-bidding should now get you there. East will cue-bid the ace of hearts and west should cue-bid in spades. Note: even if you play the style of cue-bidding where you show first round controls before second round controls, the player known to hold the weaker hand opposite a 2 opening can legitimately show a second round control in this situation. East cue-bid 5 and west cue-bids 5. This is the news that east is hoping for and east can probably now bid the grand slam.
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#3 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-June-21, 02:39

About 15 minutes ago I posted a general reply in the Expert Bridge forum about how difficult it is generally to bid 2 hands. (Might be worth a look.) This hand sort of proves it to some extent, a good 4-4-4-1 opposite a 2 opener.

I'm sort of with Tramticket with his analysis, but there's a few assumptions that Novice/Beginners may not aware of - namely showing second round controls with the weaker hand after a fit has been found. Even so, it looks the only way to reach the grand.
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#4 User is offline   silvr bull 

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Posted 2017-June-21, 03:08

Que bidding a KQ (like in the West hand) as a first round control creates a risk. What if the East hand was x void AKQxxxx AKQxx? Then the only card that matters to East is the SA, and East will likely bid the Grand if West que bids 4S as a first round control. I think the OP bidding should go:
2C - 2D
3D - 4D (Good hand and good support. Let's talk about slam.)
4H - 5H (Slam looks good, but I have no 1st round controls. Is the HK is a key card for you?)
7D
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#5 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-June-21, 03:39

I see this a little differently. Some reasonable advice to beginners is not to bid a grand slam unless you are certain it is right. Here the problem is that East can find out about the K or the singleton club but not both, so being certain of the grand is difficult. So I would be somewhat more willing to accept 6+1 or 6NT than others appear to be. Would you not feel a little stupid bidding 7 if West was 3343 instead of 4441? Surely that hand is also showing diamond support and cue bidding?

To get all of the information probably takes more complicated agreements than an N/B pair would have. A relay system would probably show the 4441 shape, KQ and K at the 5 level for example. Over 2 though, my feeling is that this is actually a fairly difficult problem and beyond the scope of this forum.
(-: Zel :-)
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#6 User is offline   NickRW 

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Posted 2017-June-21, 04:58

View Postportia2, on 2017-June-21, 01:36, said:

7D was the optimum contract. how would you bid it?


Short answer is most partners and I would not bid it. 6D every day of the week, 6NT maybe, but to bid 7D with the tools we have in the box, we'd have to have reason to be swinging.
"Pass is your friend" - my brother in law - who likes to bid a lot.
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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-June-21, 05:36

View Postsilvr bull, on 2017-June-21, 03:08, said:

Que bidding a KQ (like in the West hand) as a first round control creates a risk. What if the East hand was x void AKQxxxx AKQxx? Then the only card that matters to East is the SA, and East will likely bid the Grand if West que bids 4S as a first round control. I think the OP bidding should go:
2C - 2D
3D - 4D (Good hand and good support. Let's talk about slam.)
4H - 5H (Slam looks good, but I have no 1st round controls. Is the HK is a key card for you?)
7D


Unfortunately partner's hand was KQ, Kxxx, Jxxx, xxx and the grand had no play
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#8 User is offline   Mkgnao 

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Posted 2017-June-21, 06:21

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-June-21, 05:36, said:

Unfortunately partner's hand was KQ, Kxxx, Jxxx, xxx and the grand had no play


No play is a bit of a stretch since you make it with A onside and an automatic --squeeze if the defender with 4+ holds 5+ or QJx/QJxx. On the lay-out of A onside and QJ tight, the contract is cold. Aside from all the practical extra chances that the defenders will make fatal discards on the run of all your trumps. Though I agree with the gist of your post that a grand slam with the hand you gave as dummy is a bad one.
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#9 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2017-June-21, 07:11

I would just bid keycard after 2C 2D 3D 4D 4H.
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
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#10 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-June-21, 10:02

View PostMkgnao, on 2017-June-21, 06:21, said:

No play is a bit of a stretch since you make it with A onside and an automatic --squeeze if the defender with 4+ holds 5+ or QJx/QJxx. On the lay-out of A onside and QJ tight, the contract is cold. Aside from all the practical extra chances that the defenders will make fatal discards on the run of all your trumps. Though I agree with the gist of your post that a grand slam with the hand you gave as dummy is a bad one.


I didn't include 10 but yes you're down to a very unlikely position.

It's a common thing that people construct an auction to the right spot without thinking that it might not be the right spot with other hands consistent with the auction to date
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#11 User is offline   Kaitlyn S 

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Posted 2017-June-21, 10:18

Why are we talking about squeezes in the novice forum?

I agree that 7D would be very difficult to reach for any novice pair. My favorite partner and I might not reach it, but if we did, it would be using a bid that is not appropriate for discussion in this forum.

Spoiler

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#12 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-June-21, 10:58

View PostMkgnao, on 2017-June-21, 06:21, said:

No play is a bit of a stretch since you make it with A onside and an automatic --squeeze if the defender with 4+ holds 5+ or QJx/QJxx. On the lay-out of A onside and QJ tight, the contract is cold.

An interesting and amusing usage of the word cold. Even putting aside the matter of the T, you first need a specific layout and even then you have a guess if North is the defender with QJ. On seeing an honour drop under the ace, is it from QJ or a singleton? The point CY was making is the same as mine though, that knowing about the K is not enough to bid the grand slam safely. And I think it is correct in the N/B forum to let the OP know that they did nothing wrong in missing this grand and not to suggest double-dummy bidding sequences.

Arend's approach for example (simply bidding RKCB) is eminently practical and almost certainly ends in 6 regardless of whether Opener shows 4 key cards or an even number with a void. This strikes me as a model answer.

Finally, Kaitlyn posted while I was still working on this, and this auction suffers from a similar issue. The club shortage is now found but not the K. So we might end up with 7 diamonds, 2 clubs, 2 club ruffs (or QJ) and a heart but nowhere to park that last irritating 4. So even if splinters are available in a bid that is a jump to game, there is no reason to assume that this will lead to the grand slam being bid.
(-: Zel :-)
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#13 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-June-21, 14:33

I agree with the 4 bid as the next bid after 3 . Responder has a fit and controls in all the outside suits so slam is a huge possibility. 4 is the strongest raise implying some slam interest With a lesser distributional hand, responder might just bid 5 . With a lesser hand and no big fit, responder might bid another suit trying for 3 NT.

Opener after 4 , should ask "What do I need to know to make slam possible?" The answer is that there are no more than 1 loser in and combined. Since that means controls are needed in specific suits it should push opener toward cue bidding. So 4 shows opener's cheapest control. (I'm assuming you show any control A, K, or shortness in this auction.)

Responder holding the K knows that opener's control is the A or shortness. So, responder continues by showing his control with 4 .

Opener continues with a 5 control bid. It shows opener is still interested in slam, has a control, and isn't worried about As by not using an A asking bid (Blackwood, RKCB, etc.)

Responder should continue cueing with a 5 control bid. At this point, opener knows there are no losers as responder must have the K or a stiff, so continues with a 5 control bid to elicit more information if possible from responder.

Responder now can bid 6 to show the control, in this case, shortness.

Opener looking at AK knows responder's control must be a stiff or void, so responder's cue must be the K. Even if responder has only xxx, 7 will still make if responder has A for his control and, even if not, various squeezes might be available. And anytime responder has xxxx, 7 should be cold barring some exotic ruff. Opener should bid 7 .

So the sequence should be

2 - 2
3 - 4
4 - 4
5 - 5
5 - 6
7

With some of my partners we would probably get the above auction. With some partners playing 1st round controls first we probably wouldn't get there. However, with my favorite partner, playing a specifically structured form of 1st round controls first, it would be easy peasy.

2 - 2
3 - 4
4 - 4 NT (4 =1st in , 4 NT=waiting w continued slam interest, no 1st in )
5 - 6 (5 =1st in , 6 =2nds in , , and )
7
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#14 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-June-21, 18:38

View PostThe_Badger, on 2017-June-21, 02:39, said:

About 15 minutes ago I posted a general reply in the Expert Bridge forum about how difficult it is generally to bid 2 hands. (Might be worth a look.) This hand sort of proves it to some extent, a good 4-4-4-1 opposite a 2 opener.

I'm sort of with Tramticket with his analysis, but there's a few assumptions that Novice/Beginners may not aware of - namely showing second round controls with the weaker hand after a fit has been found. Even so, it looks the only way to reach the grand.


You might want to look at my post on that thread from today 6-21, as I describe my thoughts looking at 2C openings and follow-ups. Would have worked great here as my responders with game-forcing values show shortness on the first bid.
If something cannot go on forever, it will stop. - Herb Stein
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#15 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-June-21, 18:42

View PostZelandakh, on 2017-June-21, 03:39, said:

I see this a little differently. Some reasonable advice to beginners is not to bid a grand slam unless you are certain it is right. Here the problem is that East can find out about the K or the singleton club but not both, so being certain of the grand is difficult. So I would be somewhat more willing to accept 6+1 or 6NT than others appear to be. Would you not feel a little stupid bidding 7 if West was 3343 instead of 4441? Surely that hand is also showing diamond support and cue bidding?

To get all of the information probably takes more complicated agreements than an N/B pair would have. A relay system would probably show the 4441 shape, KQ and K at the 5 level for example. Over 2 though, my feeling is that this is actually a fairly difficult problem and beyond the scope of this forum.


Agree. The issue is not just finding the heart K but also finding the 2 club losers are handled before 7 can be reasonably bid.
If something cannot go on forever, it will stop. - Herb Stein
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#16 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2017-June-21, 20:09

I'd like to think anyone would splinter over 3 .
Winner - BBO Challenge bracket #6 - February, 2017.
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#17 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2017-June-21, 21:00

View PostPhil, on 2017-June-21, 20:09, said:

I'd like to think anyone would splinter over 3 .

That would be nice, but how many beginners would play or realize that 5 over 3 is a splinter on this auction? I'd be happy to see beginners get to 6 TBH.
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#18 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2017-June-22, 00:46

I don't see what's so hard about 5C being a splinter over 3D. What else could it be? If you had a very good club suit, surely you would bid 3C over 2C. If you had QJT9xxx of clubs and a side Q or some such hand (i.e., clubs with a hand not strong enough for a positive response) then 2D first, and then 4C over 3D shows that hand. So 5C over 3D has to be a splinter. After that, 5H (cue, looking for a grand) 5S (too strong for 6D, but you don't want to go past 6D) 6C (last train for the grand) 7D.

If you don't want to trot out 5C and instead raise to 4D, I still think you can get to 7.

2C 2D
3D 4D
4H 4S
5C 5H
5S 6C
7D

I would bid 4S over 4H, because the responder's hand is great opposite a 2C-3D opener (which ought to show 9.5 tricks or so, not the 8.5 you have for a major). I think bidding 5D there is chicken-hearted. If you don't like 4S, then you might try 4NT on no keycards and get this auction:

2C 2D
3D 4D
4H 4NT
5NT(1) 6C(2)
7D(3)

(1) Even number of keycards and a void
(2) With a major as trump suit, 6C asks for the void (if below the trump suit, else bid the trump suit), but that's impossible to show when the trump suit is diamonds, so this is a general grand slam try
(3) Opener has 10 tricks, so it's an easy accept

There are other roads to the grand as well.

Cheers,
mike
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#19 User is offline   NickRW 

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Posted 2017-June-22, 04:54

View PostPhil, on 2017-June-21, 20:09, said:

I'd like to think anyone would splinter over 3 .


I thought of 2C-2D-3D-5C, but dismissed it on the grounds that some of my partners would not recognise it and probably pass. With others, if they produced that 5C rebid on me, I'd take it as a splinter and bid on, but my fingers would be crossed under the table. Some of these 2C sequences come up so rarely as to effectively never come up and therefore do not get discussed - with much justification - there are other things for a partnership to work on which will give greater results.
"Pass is your friend" - my brother in law - who likes to bid a lot.
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#20 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2017-June-22, 05:05

How about;
2C 2D
3D 4D
4H 4S
5C 5H
5S 6C
7D
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