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Your responses to partner's 2 Clubs opening bid? What system do you play?

#1 User is offline   cartruck 

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Posted 2017-June-20, 18:54

Playing SAYC (heavily modified), playing weak 2 Majors and modified Flannery for 2 (weak 2 bid is pretty worthless), how do you respond to your partner's strong and artificial 2 opening?

I like Controls, and here's how it goes:

2 = No Aces
2 = 1 Ace or 2 Kings
2 = AK in the same suit
2NT = Ace and King in different suits or 3 Kings
3 = Anything better

What do you all play?
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#2 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2017-June-20, 19:09

My favourite has always been:

2D = waiting, most hands
New suit = good 5+ card suit, probably 2 of top 3 or 3 of top 5 honours
2NT = I don't want to play in this partnership any more
3NT = unspecified solid 7+ card suit
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#3 User is offline   cartruck 

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Posted 2017-June-20, 19:21

View Postsfi, on 2017-June-20, 19:09, said:

My favourite has always been:

2D = waiting, most hands
New suit = good 5+ card suit, probably 2 of top 3 or 3 of top 5 honours
2NT = I don't want to play in this partnership any more
3NT = unspecified solid 7+ card suit


It's that "Waiting" 2 bid I can't stand. Although, I think most people do play that. I don't want to wait, let's get there. ;)
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#4 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2017-June-20, 19:24

Mostly I want the responder to stay out of my way before I start describing a good hand. If they have controls I care about, we'll find out soon enough.
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#5 User is offline   cartruck 

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Posted 2017-June-20, 19:27

View Postsfi, on 2017-June-20, 19:24, said:

Mostly I want the responder to stay out of my way before I start describing a good hand. If they have controls I care about, we'll find out soon enough.


Not when the opponents preempt after the 2 bid, like they frequently do. Then you're almost bidding blind at game level+. Using Controls, you eliminate a good deal of the equation right off the bat.
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#6 User is offline   manudude03 

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Posted 2017-June-20, 19:36

I find interference after 2C-2D is a lot less frequent than the initial 2C bid. Anyway, I also play 2D as waiting. I find control bids get in the way of finding your fits which is more important than finding controls which you can likely find out about later.
Wayne Somerville
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#7 User is offline   cartruck 

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Posted 2017-June-20, 19:42

View Postmanudude03, on 2017-June-20, 19:36, said:

I find interference after 2C-2D is a lot less frequent than the initial 2C bid. Anyway, I also play 2D as waiting. I find control bids get in the way of finding your fits which is more important than finding controls which you can likely find out about later.


You can not stop interference immediately after the 2 bid. You can however get probably all the information you need to set the contract where it should be (assuming interference after the 2 bid), and explore slam possibilities right away if your partner immediately tells you how strong his/her hand is.
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#8 User is offline   manudude03 

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Posted 2017-June-20, 19:58

View Postcartruck, on 2017-June-20, 19:42, said:

You can not stop interference immediately after the 2 bid. You can however get probably all the information you need to set the contract where it should be (assuming interference after the 2 bid), and explore slam possibilities right away if your partner immediately tells you how strong his/her hand is.


If you are getting these hands where you know where you want to play, but fear interference, then maybe you should be looking at the hands you choose to open 2C on rather than coming up with a solution to a problem which shouldn't exist. Meanwhile, it's not like control bids solves all your problems after interference anyway.

Take a hand like AQxxx x AKx AKQx, you open 2C, get a 2H response, and the next hand bids say 4H. Partner could easily have any of the following:
xx Axx xxxxx xxx - You are probably best defending this.
JTx Axx QJxx xxx - 6S is excellent
Kx Kxx QJxxx xxx - 6D is best
x Axxx Qxxx Jxxx - You belong in 6C.

I'm not saying that a waiting 2D solves this problem, but I'd prefer only having problems getting to the right strain when there is competition as opposed to always when partner has some useful holding.
Wayne Somerville
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#9 User is offline   Kaitlyn S 

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Posted 2017-June-20, 20:00

View Postsfi, on 2017-June-20, 19:09, said:

My favourite has always been:

2D = waiting, most hands
New suit = good 5+ card suit, probably 2 of top 3 or 3 of top 5 honours
2NT = I don't want to play in this partnership any more
3NT = unspecified solid 7+ card suit
It seems as though you could switch the meanings of 2NT and 3NT and have more room for description :D
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#10 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2017-June-20, 20:04

View PostKaitlyn S, on 2017-June-20, 20:00, said:

It seems as though you could switch the meanings of 2NT and 3NT and have more room for description :D


Not so - I have an entire structure for continuations over 2NT. Surely this is a conversation best held at the table.

A relay system works well here. ;)
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#11 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-June-20, 20:20

After 2 , I normally play the following responses -

2 - waiting

2 , 2 - shows 5+ cards to 2 honors and at least 1 1/2 QTs

2 NT - undefined as of now

3 , 3 - shows 5+ cards to 2 of top 3 honors and at least 2 QTs.

3 of a major or higher suit response - 7+ card suit usually not better QJxxxxx(x..) nothing else in hand

-
After the 2 response and opener's rebid is a suit

cheapest suit - second negative

2 NT - unspecified positive (5 -20 pts)

new suit bid - forward going showing a suit feature (limited by only by failure to make a 1st round positive)

single raise of opener's suit - Minimum 8+ and normally Hxx or xxxx support - strongest raise

jump to game in opener's suit - about 4 max with fit - not forward going


Using 2 as a waiting bid gives opener a chance to start describing their hand as economically as possible. It's often easier for the strong hand to tell than responder to try to describe their hand.

I normally don't play an immediate 2 response to 2 as a second negative hand. When opener has a 2 suiter, it risks losing a suit with responder likely to pass the rebid. Opener has to guess which to rebid.
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#12 User is offline   cartruck 

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Posted 2017-June-20, 20:24

View Postmanudude03, on 2017-June-20, 19:58, said:

If you are getting these hands where you know where you want to play, but fear interference, then maybe you should be looking at the hands you choose to open 2C on rather than coming up with a solution to a problem which shouldn't exist. Meanwhile, it's not like control bids solves all your problems after interference anyway.

Take a hand like AQxxx x AKx AKQx, you open 2C, get a 2H response, and the next hand bids say 4H. Partner could easily have any of the following:
xx Axx xxxxx xxx - You are probably best defending this.
JTx Axx QJxx xxx - 6S is excellent
Kx Kxx QJxxx xxx - 6D is best
x Axxx Qxxx Jxxx - You belong in 6C.

I'm not saying that a waiting 2D solves this problem, but I'd prefer only having problems getting to the right strain when there is competition as opposed to always when partner has some useful holding.


2 waiting doesn't solve the problem at all. But, with Controls, I will love knowing those Aces and Kings you displayed there. I'd like that a lot.
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#13 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2017-June-20, 20:33

Controls works well when opener has a shapely hand with self-supporting suit(s) and only needs top cards for slam. Unfortunately that's a very small subset of 2C openers.

The general principle "strain before level" applies here. Find your fit first then determine whether slam is on or not. Where responder can bid suits naturally, opener may be able to bid two suits over high-level interference rather than one.

ahydra
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#14 User is offline   manudude03 

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Posted 2017-June-20, 20:36

View Postcartruck, on 2017-June-20, 20:24, said:

2 waiting doesn't solve the problem at all. But, with Controls, I will love knowing those Aces and Kings you displayed there. I'd like that a lot.


The point was if you are going to be messed around with after interference anyway, then you may as well get the non-competitive auctions right. Control bids don't work in either case.
Wayne Somerville
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#15 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-June-20, 20:43

We play 2 and 2 as wishing to play there opposite 20-21(22) balanced. After the Kokish relay we play 2NT as both minors, and 3m to play there opposite 20-21.

We have a lot of idle bids that we are thinking about. Hate controls a lot.

Unlike the OP, I like a weak 2. But if I couldn't have it I would not waste the bid on something like Flannery; I would play a Multi.
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#16 User is offline   cartruck 

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Posted 2017-June-20, 20:55

View PostVampyr, on 2017-June-20, 20:43, said:

We play 2 and 2 as wishing to play there opposite 20-21(22) balanced. After the Kokish relay we play 2NT as both minors, and 3m to play there opposite 20-21.

We have a lot of idle bids that we are thinking about. Hate controls a lot.

Unlike the OP, I like a weak 2. But if I couldn't have it I would not waste the bid on something like Flannery; I would play a Multi.


I don't care for Flannery a whole lot either, even our modified version, but after I tell my 9 card story I am almost always the dummy hand which has a slight benefit, and it tells almost my entire hand quickly that I like a lot. I never could find something I truly loved that much for a 2 opening.
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#17 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2017-June-20, 23:32

View Postcartruck, on 2017-June-20, 20:55, said:

I don't care for Flannery a whole lot either, even our modified version, but after I tell my 9 card story I am almost always the dummy hand which has a slight benefit, and it tells almost my entire hand quickly that I like a lot. I never could find something I truly loved that much for a 2 opening.


The biggest advantage of Flannery actually lies in the hands when you do not open 2. It particularly takes some serious weight off of auctions when one starts auction 1. Also in competition. Knowing that pd can not have side 4 card spades and a minimum hand helps a lot.
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#18 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2017-June-20, 23:54

I usually play 2D waiting and a suit as to play vs 20-21 NT. However I think that transfers is a good (but complex) alternative. Here's a structure I've composed, which is tailored to 2C opener having 18-19 NT or any game force:

2D = 4+H or waiting (not suitable for other bids)
2H = 4+S
2S = Minor suit stayman. Weak or slam interested.
2NT = 5-5 majors.
3m = 5-4 minors, GF.
3M = 5-5 minirs and singleton M, GF.

More details here: http://snortingmarad...clubs18_19.html
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#19 User is offline   silvr bull 

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Posted 2017-June-21, 00:01

View Postcartruck, on 2017-June-20, 18:54, said:

Playing SAYC (heavily modified), playing weak 2 Majors and modified Flannery for 2 (weak 2 bid is pretty worthless), how do you respond to your partner's strong and artificial 2 opening?

I like Controls, and here's how it goes:

2 = No Aces
2 = 1 Ace or 2 Kings
2 = AK in the same suit
2NT = Ace and King in different suits or 3 Kings
3 = Anything better

What do you all play?

When I played controls, my 2NT was specifically three kings to get some small chance at right side when we play in NT. Now, I prefer 2H as an immediate "double negative" (to quickly tell my sad story and to caution opener against over enthusiasm), and 2D waiting with a king or better. If opener raises my weak 2H to 3H, then I can pass with a very bad hand. If opener bids a different suit, then I treat it as a one round force.
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#20 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-June-21, 01:17

We do not like to be waiters.!
2D means less than 8 HCP ( or less than 1and 1/2 Culbertson tricks.)
2H/S means the bid suit 5or more cards and 8plus HCP.(or at least 1 and 1/2 tricks)
2NT means 8 plus HCP(or at least1and half tricks) balanced hand
3C/D means 5plus bid suit and 8 plus HCP(or at least 1and 1/2 tricks)
There are no responses beyond 3D.
Note: if the hand is 5332 and the five card suit is a 5 carder ,less than Q headed, minor we treat the hand as balanced and bid 2NT.
If opener over 2D,rebids 2NT(23/24 Balanced) we use Baron and major suit transfers.3S shows 5/4 in majors.
If opener rebids a suit then responder bids naturally.
Q-xxx-xxx-Axxxxx. Our bidding went.
2C-2D
2S-3C
4NT-5D(one Ace)
6S-7S (if missing the Q partner bids six then I must bid 7). Of course,the grand was cold.
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