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Opener's No Trump rebid after interference.

#1 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2017-June-18, 22:31

Playing a weak No Trump, suppose I have a 15+ balanced hand. Besides having a stop, what point count do I need to have in order to rebid No Trumps after the following sequences.

i) 1 - (P) - P - (1) - ?
ii) 1 - (P) - P - (2) - ?
iii) 1 - (P) - 1 - 2 - ?
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#2 User is offline   spotlight7 

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Posted 2017-June-18, 23:34

1) 18-19HCP, partner passed so game is unlikely. You want to compete for the part score and show 18-19.

A pass here shows a 15-17 range in my style. If you were unbalanced, you would bid a suit here.


2) There is no natural 2N bid opposite a passed partner.


3) Partner bid so 2N bids are 17-18.

With 15-16 my style is to pass here. With an unbalanced hand, you would bid a suit here.
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#3 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2017-June-19, 02:52

In 1) I play a 1NT rebid as 17-19.

In 2) 2NT could possibly be bid with a very good hand but more likely you don't want to play NT. If you have a suitable hand, feel free to X to find a playable partscore.

In 3) I normally play 2NT = 15-17 (not without risk - perhaps "good 15"), 3NT = 18-19.

ahydra
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#4 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-June-19, 06:13

I think the traditional "standard" agreements are 18-19 for i and iii and DNE for ii, though there is some potential for shading as noted by previous posters. With a strong NT in i or ii (passed partner) you either pass or double depending on shape, vulnerability and scoring. In iii a strong NT will usually double and the sequence - "1X - (P) - 1Y - (2Z); X" - is commonly dubbed the strong NT double for this reason.
(-: Zel :-)
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#5 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2017-June-19, 10:22

View PostZelandakh, on 2017-June-19, 06:13, said:

DNE for ii ?

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#6 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-June-19, 11:01

i) - With partner passing the opening bid presumably showing less than 5, 1 NT should show 18-19 and a stopper.

ii) - Likewise, 2 NT should show 18-19 and a stopper.

iii) - Since partner has responded, 2 NT should show the 15-17 balanced hand and stopper. 3 NT should show 18-19 and stopper.
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#7 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-June-19, 11:39

DNE = does not exist.
(-: Zel :-)
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#8 User is online   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-June-19, 11:44

"DNE for ii?"

DNE = Does Not Exist. There is no balanced hand worth a 2NT bid opposite a passed hand, that hasn't already opened 2NT.

Change the opening to 1D and a 2C overcall and I would expect the call to be based on a long running diamond suit. Less likely though if the opening is a major.
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#9 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-June-19, 11:58

View PostTramticket, on 2017-June-19, 11:44, said:

Change the opening to 1D and a 2C overcall and I would expect the call to be based on a long running diamond suit. Less likely though if the opening is a major.

And if the overcall is a suit other than clubs then 2NT might be Good/Bad or a transfer...but that is going into areas less suitable for N/B so probably better just to have readers avoid making the call completely for now.
(-: Zel :-)
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#10 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2017-June-20, 02:03

I'm not sure a point count range is particularly meaningful in the first two cases. Partner is limited to four of five points at most, so he is never going to raise, although he might take out into a long straggly suit. Therefore a NT rebid just shows a hand where you expect to, or at least have good hopes of, making it. This is likely to depend on suit quality and points location more than total points. So, in case 1 you would prefer to rebid 1NT on KQx KQJ10x Axx Jx rather than Axx KJxxx Axx AQ.
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#11 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2017-June-21, 19:09

You didn't indicate the range of your weak NT. Do you play 10-12? 11-13? 12-14?

I'm going to assume you play a standard 11+ - 14 weak NT, with 1m followed by 1NT over partner's rebid showing 15-17. In that case:

(i) 1NT here shows a hand that would rebid 2NT if partner had bid the first time. 18-19; maybe a good 17 that you upgraded to 18. Since you opened 1H, the 17 hand is much more in play (you have a five-card suit, which upgrades the hand). With the 15-16 hand, you have to pass, which is a drawback of the weak NT (in American-style 2/1, you would open 1NT with 15-16 and 5h 332).

(ii) In standard, 2NT wouldn't be an option. This ought to show at least 20-21 (partner is a passed hand over an opponents' pass, after all), but with 20-21 balanced and a 5-card H suit, you should open 2NT, not 1H.

Of course, you can agree to give 2NT a conventional meaning here liek good-bad, but with RHOs bidding 2C, that doesn't make much sense (how do get back to 2h?). That would make a lot more sense if RHO had bid 2S. In that case, a 2NT bid could be used to show 5/5 hearts and a minor suit good-bad (and a 3m bid would show hearts and a minor 16-18 or so).

(iii) Unfortunately, 2NT on this auction has to show the 15-17 hand. Otherwise, what are you supposed to bid with that hand at this point? It's unfortunate, because if you have only 15 or an ugly 16 and partner strained to bid with a weak hand (5 or a bad 6), you are quite likely to be overboard, sometimes very badly so. This is another drawback of the weak NT. Playing 15-17. a 2NT call here would show 17-18 (you would open the 15-16 hands 1NT, but you would open the 17 hand with 5H with 1H in most cases).

Cheers,
mike
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#12 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-June-21, 23:28

View Postmiamijd, on 2017-June-21, 19:09, said:

(iii) Unfortunately, 2NT on this auction has to show the 15-17 hand. Otherwise, what are you supposed to bid with that hand at this point? It's unfortunate, because if you have only 15 or an ugly 16 and partner strained to bid with a weak hand (5 or a bad 6), you are quite likely to be overboard, sometimes very badly so. This is another drawback of the weak NT. Playing 15-17. a 2NT call here would show 17-18 (you would open the 15-16 hands 1NT, but you would open the 17 hand with 5H with 1H in most cases).

I am guessing you do not personally play a weak NT system. What I wrote in #4 is absolutely standard. It is certainly a drawback of WNT systems that the double performs this duty but much less so than being forced to rebid 2NT here.
(-: Zel :-)
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#13 User is offline   rigbyrigz 

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Posted 2018-July-30, 09:45

View PostGrahamJson, on 2017-June-20, 02:03, said:

I'm not sure a point count range is particularly meaningful in the first two cases. Partner is limited to four of five points at most, so he is never going to raise, although he might take out into a long straggly suit. Therefore a NT rebid just shows a hand where you expect to, or at least have good hopes of, making it. This is likely to depend on suit quality and points location more than total points. So, in case 1 you would prefer to rebid 1NT on KQx KQJ10x Axx Jx rather than Axx KJxxx Axx AQ.

I was trying to check a recent KaplanSTYL debacle out. I played KS many years so (for the second time) sat in as Master's partner, playing KS. First issue was Kx AKxx QJTxx xx and I opened 1N red vs white 12-14. LHO doubled. Master bid 2C and announced "systems off< what I bid I want to play". Although 2D was my preference here, I passed Master's 2C call for the sake of the moment. Since he held just the Q of spades and four small clubs, it was not a success! Down -300 versus an iffy NV 3N their way, lose 5. Master "berated" me "you don't know KS< 1NT never have a 5card suit" - never heard that and don't find that "rule" anywhere" do you?


What "took the cake" though was next opening 1D with something like KJx AJ AJxx Jxxx. LHO bid 1S p p to me. I firmly believe 1N should be 18-19 now, same as standard. What do I want with 15 opposite something close to zero, a penalty double with nowhere to go?

I passed; with my spades and hearts reversed I would double. Missed 3N because Master passed 1S with xx Txx Qxx AKQ9x. Easy 2C call of course, but that's not the point: Master again berated me (oh well) "you don't know KS you must bid 1N to show a strong NT" (I presume 15-17). I had enough at this point and left my seat back to the gallery. Some specs got on my case (you have too much to pass it out, etc.) While a double may be optional/iffy, I think 1N is very wrong, but I did some research. Found your comment here about 1N being "some hope to make no point range".

I suggest pard may rightly pass (not insanity like Master's pass of 1S) with something like Qx xxx xxx KQxxx. Maybe even a point less, and if you show 18-19 will bid a good 3N. But if 1N can be on 15 (as some specs like) or even "whatever you hope might make 1n", it seems more like poker. Comments, anyone?
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#14 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2018-July-30, 11:42

View Postmiamijd, on 2017-June-21, 19:09, said:

(iii) Unfortunately, 2NT on this auction has to show the 15-17 hand. Otherwise, what are you supposed to bid with that hand at this point?


You can pass, and responder will strive to keep things open if appropriate opposite those hands.

FWIW I once asked Kokish about this auction, he suggested 2nt = Good/bad, dbl = support or 18+, pass = other. Dbl = strong NT hand as mentioned by Zelandakh is an alternate treatment.
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#15 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-July-30, 11:53

@rigbyrigz
I've never studied Kaplan-Sheinwold (which is what I assume you are talking about) but few if any systems of fifty years ago would allow 1NT holding both a 5-card and a 4-card suit, which is probably what your partner was berating you for.

Are you really allowed/expected to announce "systems off - what I bid I want to play" in this situation? If so I hope this must be clearly reflected in your Convention Card.
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#16 User is offline   rigbyrigz 

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Posted 2018-July-30, 11:54

View PostStephen Tu, on 2018-July-30, 11:42, said:

You can pass, and responder will strive to keep things open if appropriate opposite those hands.

FWIW I once asked Kokish about this auction, he suggested 2nt = Good/bad, dbl = support or 18+, pass = other. Dbl = strong NT hand as mentioned by Zelandakh is an alternate treatment.


Good Bad 2N is a great tool; careful discussion to avoid accidents!

Issue still (I would desire input) on:

When you open 1 of a minor preparatory to 1n 15-17 rebid, but LHO overcalls and pard passes. Sure pard is "usually" broke but 8 points and 5card minor ain't unheard of. Anyway, p p back to you:

is 1N 18-19 like in standard? do you double with shortness (two) in their suit and any 15, any 15-17. Do you take any action when you are 3+ in their suit?

could make a great case for negative free bids, by pard, in this type of auction, but assume no such tool.
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#17 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2018-July-30, 13:45

View Postrigbyrigz, on 2018-July-30, 09:45, said:

I was trying to check a recent KaplanSTYL debacle out. I played KS many years so (for the second time) sat in as Master's partner, playing KS. First issue was Kx AKxx QJTxx xx and I opened 1N red vs white 12-14. LHO doubled. Master bid 2C and announced "systems off< what I bid I want to play". Although 2D was my preference here, I passed Master's 2C call for the sake of the moment. Since he held just the Q of spades and four small clubs, it was not a success! Down -300 versus an iffy NV 3N their way, lose 5. Master "berated" me "you don't know KS< 1NT never have a 5card suit" - never heard that and don't find that "rule" anywhere" do you?


Just for the record, I've played KS successfully for over 40 years, so should be able to help.

First of all, you need to have some methodology for running from 1 NT doubled part of which should be designating either pass or redouble as a strength showing bid. Then all other bids can be some sort of runout. But it is incumbent upon responder that a direct run out bid be a 5 card suit as there's no assurance that opener has more than 2 cards in the suit. Let's say responder's pass requires a redouble by partner. It then shows a willingness to play 1 NTxx or a bad hand with no 5 card suit. Then after the redouble either responder passes and plays 1 NTxx or bids the cheapest 4 card suit held and both bid suits up the line to find a resting spot. Alternatively, you might play pass doesn't require a redouble, then opener can run to a 5 card minor, or, redouble to try to run without a 5 card suit by bidding 4 card suits up the line.

I think you were absolutely right to pass 2 C.

Not bidding NT with a 5 card minor suit is BS. If you hold this hand AKx Kx QJ10xx xxx playing strong NTs, after 1 - (P) - 1 - (P) - ?, your rebid would be 1NT. But playing weak NTs if you can't open this hand 1 NT because of the 5 card suit, you have to open it 1 and then rebid 2 . That's a disadvantage when 1 NT is the par contract. It also forces a whole bunch of hands that most often should be treated as balanced into minor suit auctions. That waters down one of the big advantages of KS which is limiting minor auctions to unbalanced minimum minor hands or hands with 15+ value.

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What "took the cake" though was next opening 1D with something like KJx AJ AJxx Jxxx. LHO bid 1S p p to me. I firmly believe 1N should be 18-19 now, same as standard. What do I want with 15 opposite something close to zero, a penalty double with nowhere to go?


This one you're wrong on. In KS, a 1 NT rebid in this situation specifically shows a 15-17 balanced hand with a stopper. If the hand were xx AJx AJxx KQxx, then the proper rebid would be DBL showing a hand without a stopper and 15+ points (and it need not be balanced either.) Remember if you were playing strong NTs, you'd open both of these hands 1 NT and responder would still have to run with a zero count. Also if playing strong NTs, you'd open this hand xx AJx AJxx Kxxx, 1 . Then after 1 - (1 ) - P - (P), you'd reopen with a DBL in case partner had a penalty double hand. Playing KS you have the same auction but opener promises at least a K more.

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I passed; with my spades and hearts reversed I would double. Missed 3N because Master passed 1S with xx Txx Qxx AKQ9x. Easy 2C call of course, but that's not the point: Master again berated me (oh well) "you don't know KS you must bid 1N to show a strong NT" (I presume 15-17). I had enough at this point and left my seat back to the gallery. Some specs got on my case (you have too much to pass it out, etc.) While a double may be optional/iffy, I think 1N is very wrong, but I did some research. Found your comment here about 1N being "some hope to make no point range".


If you play a variant of KS where 2 is absolutely game forcing, then partner should have doubled. Otherwise, partner has a clear cut 2 bid. As partner said, you should have bid 1 NT as I've covered above. But after 2 or the negative double, you can still get to 3 NT by opener rebidding 2 NT which also shows the 15-17 hand with major stoppers. Likewise, 2 /2 would show 15+ and at least a stopper in the suit bid. 2 shows the minimum unbalanced hand.

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I suggest pard may rightly pass (not insanity like Master's pass of 1S) with something like Qx xxx xxx KQxxx. Maybe even a point less, and if you show 18-19 will bid a good 3N. But if 1N can be on 15 (as some specs like) or even "whatever you hope might make 1n", it seems more like poker. Comments, anyone?


If partner shows 15-17 with 1 NT, then you can subside in or pass as you see fit. If it went strong 1 NT what would you do with the above hand? Pass. If it went 1 - (1S) - P -(P), what would you bid with stopped and 18-19 balanced ?
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#18 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-July-30, 14:35

View Postrmnka447, on 2018-July-30, 13:45, said:

Not bidding NT with a 5 card minor suit is BS.

Partner's ire was about bidding NT with a 5 card minor and a 4 card major together, I imagine.
I wouldn't recommend that to Novice and Beginner, nor would I bother them with legacy systems however interesting.
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#19 User is offline   rigbyrigz 

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Posted 2018-July-30, 14:49

View Postrmnka447, on 2018-July-30, 13:45, said:

Just for the record, I've played KS successfully for over 40 years, so should be able to help.

First of all, you need to have some methodology for running from 1 NT doubled part of which should be designating either pass or redouble as a strength showing bid. Then all other bids can be some sort of runout. But it is incumbent upon responder that a direct run out bid be a 5 card suit as there's no assurance that opener has more than 2 cards in the suit. Let's say responder's pass requires a redouble by partner. It then shows a willingness to play 1 NTxx or a bad hand with no 5 card suit. Then after the redouble either responder passes and plays 1 NTxx or bids the cheapest 4 card suit held and both bid suits up the line to find a resting spot. Alternatively, you might play pass doesn't require a redouble, then opener can run to a 5 card minor, or, redouble to try to run without a 5 card suit by bidding 4 card suits up the line.

I think you were absolutely right to pass 2 C.

Not bidding NT with a 5 card minor suit is BS. If you hold this hand AKx Kx QJ10xx xxx playing strong NTs, after 1 - (P) - 1 - (P) - ?, your rebid would be 1NT. But playing weak NTs if you can't open this hand 1 NT because of the 5 card suit, you have to open it 1 and then rebid 2 . That's a disadvantage when 1 NT is the par contract. It also forces a whole bunch of hands that most often should be treated as balanced into minor suit auctions. That waters down one of the big advantages of KS which is limiting minor auctions to unbalanced minimum minor hands or hands with 15+ value.



This one you're wrong on. In KS, a 1 NT rebid in this situation specifically shows a 15-17 balanced hand with a stopper. If the hand were xx AJx AJxx KQxx, then the proper rebid would be DBL showing a hand without a stopper and 15+ points (and it need not be balanced either.) Remember if you were playing strong NTs, you'd open both of these hands 1 NT and responder would still have to run with a zero count. Also if playing strong NTs, you'd open this hand xx AJx AJxx Kxxx, 1 . Then after 1 - (1 ) - P - (P), you'd reopen with a DBL in case partner had a penalty double hand. Playing KS you have the same auction but opener promises at least a K more.



If you play a variant of KS where 2 is absolutely game forcing, then partner should have doubled. Otherwise, partner has a clear cut 2 bid. As partner said, you should have bid 1 NT as I've covered above. But after 2 or the negative double, you can still get to 3 NT by opener rebidding 2 NT which also shows the 15-17 hand with a stopper. Likewise, 2 /2 would show 15+ and at least a stopper in the suit bid. 2 shows the minimum unbalanced hand.



If partner shows 15-17 with 1 NT, then you can subside in or pass as you see fit. If it went strong 1 NT what would you do with the above hand? Pass. If it went 1 - (1S) - P -(P), what would you bid with stopped and 18-19 balanced ?



Thank you for precise and elaborate reply! Just a bit asea about 18-19 balanced... AKx AJ Axxx Kxxx and Kxx AJ Axxx Kxxx both rebid 1n after 1d-1s-p-p?
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#20 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2018-July-30, 16:15

i) 18-19, you can do it with 17 if not vulnerable. Partner will rarely make a game try so it is mostly a judgment call, but he may double opponents based on the points you show so you shouldn't make this lightly. Note that opps know that your partner is broke, and can therefore make the decision to double you. So vulnerable at teams there's a case for passing even with 18.

ii) This can't be natural - the fact that you didn't open 2NT means that you don't have values to play 2NT opposite a broken partner. You could agree to play it as some very strong two-suited hand.

iii) This is the same as the 2NT rebid would have been without interference, except that it also promises a club stopper. Make sure you have an agreement about what X would mean here - then there's an inference that it denies a hand suitable for X. Most Acol players play X as 15-16(17?) balanced, but then you may wonder why you can't also double with 18-19. My suggestion is that 2NT shows a double stopper. X followed by notrump would be a more flexible hand with just a single stopper. Alternatively you could play that 2NT denies 3-card support.

It is best to play the 2NT rebid as 18-19, so with 15-17 you bid 1NT without interference, and pass or double with interference.
So there is someone who is more pedantic than I am. Good to know ;) --- Blackshoe
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