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Thoughts on extra 2 bids in a multi two structure

#1 User is offline   hirowla 

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Posted 2017-June-17, 21:22

Hi,

I was after some thoughts on the 2/2/2NT in a multi two bidding structure. I know a few possible ways to do it and would like some thoughts on each.

1. 2/2 shows 5 of the major and 4+ of a minor and 2NT shows at least 55 in the minors. Each of these is 6-10 pts.

With this structure how would you show a hand with both majors and similar point range? Also how would partner structure a strong enquiry over the 2/2 bids?

2. 2 and 2NT as above, 2 as 5 and 4+ of any other suit.

With this structure how would partner structure a strong enquiry?

3. 2 as 5 and 4+ of another suit, 2 and 2NT as in 1 above.

With this structure how would you do a strong enquiry?

Of these 3 which would you recommend and why? Keep in mind the questions I asked about each!

Thanks,

Ian
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#2 User is offline   zhoraster 

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Posted 2017-June-18, 00:52

I use the third option. The strong enquiry is 2nt, the answer 3 meaning spades. The advantage over the second option are
  • if the opener has majors, and the responder is weak, than the major will be played on the second level
  • it is much harder to overcall this opening with 2

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#3 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2017-June-18, 07:05

View Posthirowla, on 2017-June-17, 21:22, said:

Hi,

I was after some thoughts on the 2/2/2NT in a multi two bidding structure. I know a few possible ways to do it and would like some thoughts on each.

1. 2/2 shows 5 of the major and 4+ of a minor and 2NT shows at least 55 in the minors. Each of these is 6-10 pts.

With this structure how would you show a hand with both majors and similar point range? Also how would partner structure a strong enquiry over the 2/2

bids?

2. 2 and 2NT as above, 2 as 5 and 4+ of any other suit.

With this structure how would partner structure a strong enquiry?

3. 2 as 5 and 4+ of another suit, 2 and 2NT as in 1 above.

With this structure how would you do a strong enquiry?

1. (Muiderberg 2M)

With this structure how would you show a hand with both majors and similar point range?

Some have put this hand type into their otherwise strong 2 opening. (See here, under "Flemish style".)

Also how would partner structure a strong enquiry over the 2/2 bids?

2M-?:

(...)
2N = INV+ relay
...3 = MIN, 4+
...3 = MIN, 4+
...3 = MAX, 4+ C
...3 = MAX, 4+ D
...(But I prefer
...3 = MAX, 2-OM4+D
...3N = MAX, 3OM4+D)
3 = P/C
(...)

2. (Muiderberg 2, Lucas 2)

With this structure how would you do a strong enquiry?

2-?:

Maybe:

(...)
2N = INV+ relay
...3 = MIN, 3-H4+C
...3 = MIN, 3-H4+D
...3 = MIN, 4+ H
...3 = MAX, 3-H4+m
...3N = MAX, 4 H
3 = P/C
(...).

3. (Lucas 2, Muiderberg 2)

With this structure how would you do a strong enquiry?

2-?:

Maybe:

(...)
2 = P/C
2N = INV+ relay
...3 = MIN, 3-S4+C
...3 = MIN, 3-S4+D
...3 = MIN, 4 S
...3 = MAX, 3-S4+m
...3N = MAX, 4 S
(...).

View Posthirowla, on 2017-June-17, 21:22, said:

Of these 3 which would you recommend and why? Keep in mind the questions I asked about each!

I've always found the following problems very annoying when playing around with Lucas Twos:

* Responder can't afford to search for a 4-4+ OM fit with < INV, 2M4+OM, so the fit may be lost on partscore deals.
* Even if a 4-4 heart fit is found after 2-3(P/C); 3, there will usually be no Law protection.

So until someone convinces me that these problems aren't serious in practice, I'd go for 1., with or without Ekren type hands in 2.
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#4 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2017-June-18, 08:09

I too prefer Muiderberg. I find weak hands with 2 majors can be passed and can compete or raise p quite comfortably. It is rare to use pass and correct as even 2 card support is generally better played in the major. Including the possibility that hearts can be the 2nd suit just makes constructive follow ups too hard to manage.

After 2N you can also use the structure 3m for a 4 card minor and 3M to show a 55 hand
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#5 User is offline   spotlight7 

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Posted 2017-June-18, 08:30

View Posthirowla, on 2017-June-17, 21:22, said:

Hi,

I was after some thoughts on the 2/2/2NT in a multi two bidding structure. I know a few possible ways to do it and would like some thoughts on each.

1. 2/2 shows 5 of the major and 4+ of a minor and 2NT shows at least 55 in the minors. Each of these is 6-10 pts.

With this structure how would you show a hand with both majors and similar point range? Also how would partner structure a strong enquiry over the 2/2 bids?


****You could use 2H* as 5-5 majors @6-10 'or' 5H and 4+ of a minor.

2H*-2N*-3C/D/H* showing Cs, Ds and 3H*='spades' and lower range.

Max. range bids 2H-2N-3S*=Cs. ...3N*=Ds and ...4C*=Ss.


A 'pass or correct' 2H-3m* will find the minor. With 5-5 majors, 2H-3C-3H* shows the 5-5 M hand.****



3. 2 as 5 and 4+ of another suit, 2 and 2NT as in 1 above.

With this structure how would you do a strong enquiry?


****2M-2N* asks: 3C*=Cs lower range. 3D*=Ds lower range. 3H*=Cs upper range. 3S*=Ds upper range.

2H*-3C as pass or correct finds the minor without showing values.****


Of these 3 which would you recommend and why? Keep in mind the questions I asked about each!


****Depends on the regulations you play under. Also your 'risk' factor.


If you wish to include 5-5 majors, it is not a big problem(most of the time)****


Thanks,

Ian

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#6 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2017-June-18, 08:44

I used to play a variation on Tartan Two Bids. These go:/

2H/2S= Either 55 with the major and a minor, weak (6-10 say) or an Acol 2 in the major (can be two suited)

Responses are:-

2S Natural, invitational
2NT Asking for the minor. If opener rebids a major or jumps to 4m he is showing an Acol 2.
3C invitational hand without major suit support. opener rebids:-
- Pass with minimum and clubs
- 3D minimum and diamonds
- 3H max with clubs
- 3S max with diamonds
- 3NT Acol 2, single suit
- 4 any Acol 2, two suited.
3D Invitational to 4 of major. Opener bids 3 or 4 of his major. Other bids are Acol 2
Raises: to play, not invitational.

Opening bids of 2NT can be weak 55 minors or whatever else you prefer.
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#7 User is online   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-June-19, 00:26

The Roman Club system has these bids.One may look for it on the internet.The further development is also given in derails in the original text book which may be available with sellers selling used copies in good condition.
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#8 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-June-19, 01:09

2 = at least five hearts, at least 4 (5 vulnerable) in any other suit.

Responses:
- 2 pass or correct
- 2NT Enquiry
- 2 - 2nd suit is clubs - bottom of range
- 2 - 2nd suit is diamonds - bottom of range
- 2 - 2nd suit is spades - bottom of range
- 2 - 2nd suit is spades - top of range
- 2NT - 2nd suit is a minor - top of range
- 3/3/3 - Natural & forcing

2 = at least five spades, at least 4 (5 vulnerable) in any other suit.

Responses:
- 3 pass or correct
- 2NT Enquiry
- 2 - 2nd suit is clubs - bottom of range
- 2 - 2nd suit is diamonds - bottom of range
- 2 - 2nd suit is hearts - bottom of range
- 2 - 2nd suit is hearts - top of range
- 2NT - 2nd suit is a minor - top of range
- 3/3 - Natural & forcing

With 5-5 in the major we open 2.
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#9 User is online   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-June-19, 02:48

View PostTramticket, on 2017-June-19, 01:09, said:

2 = at least five hearts, at least 4 (5 vulnerable) in any other suit.

Responses:
- 2 pass or correct
- 2NT Enquiry
- 2 - 2nd suit is clubs - bottom of range
- 2 - 2nd suit is diamonds - bottom of range
- 2 - 2nd suit is spades - bottom of range
- 2 - 2nd suit is spades - top of range
- 2NT - 2nd suit is a minor - top of range
- 3/3/3 - Natural & forcing

2 = at least five spades, at least 4 (5 vulnerable) in any other suit.

Responses:
- 3 pass or correct
- 2NT Enquiry
- 2 - 2nd suit is clubs - bottom of range
- 2 - 2nd suit is diamonds - bottom of range
- 2 - 2nd suit is hearts - bottom of range
- 2 - 2nd suit is hearts - top of range
- 2NT - 2nd suit is a minor - top of range
- 3/3 - Natural & forcing

With 5-5 in the major we open 2.

Something amiss here.If 2NT is enquiry how are the responses shown at 2 level when it will be an underbid .?
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#10 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-June-19, 09:10

View Postmsjennifer, on 2017-June-19, 02:48, said:

Something amiss here.If 2NT is enquiry how are the responses shown at 2 level when it will be an underbid .?


Good spot - yes the responses are of course at the three level. :)
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#11 User is offline   Stefan_O 

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Posted 2017-June-19, 16:46

I'll give you what I consider a much better option:

Vulnerable:
* 2 = 5+major. 8-10hcp.
* 2M = 5+major. 5-7hcp.

Non vuln:
* 2 = 5+major. 7-10hcp.
* 2M = 5+major. 3-6hcp.

When I write '5+major', I mean either a normal 6-card-suit,
or a good 5-card-suit playable against a singleton,
preferably like: QJT8x, KQT9x, or similar/better.

I strongly prefer this method over 5M+4m, etc...
Who wants to see pd make preference to these often silly 3m contracts, anyways,
and - esp when vuln - just sit hope opps don't find the Double?

After 2-2NT (forcing invite+) bid, for example:
* 3 = 6-card major.
* 3 = 5 hearts. Minimum.
* 3 = 5 spades. Minimum.
* 3 = 5 hearts. Maximum.
* 3NT = 5 spades. maximum.

After 2M-2NT (forcing invite+) you can bid, for example:
* 3 = 5-card suit. Minimum.
* 3 = 6-card suit. Minimum.
* 3 = 5-card suit. Maximum.
* 3 = 6-card suit. Maximum.
* 3NT = AKQxxx.

If you still want to open weak-2 hands, you can do so, too:

2 =
* A) Weak-2 7-10hcp.
* B) Normal strong 2C-opening.

Over this 2 opening, responder with 15+hcp or so, can bid a forcing 2NT or 2M with 5+major just like over a natural 2 opening.
Otherwise, responds 2 over which the weak hand will Pass.

ps. If you want to maximize the pain for opps, do not include any strong option in your 2-multi opening, only the above.
It's next to impossible to work out an efficient defense against 2, when you can no longer rely on opps to keep bidding over 2.
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#12 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-June-20, 06:38

Of your 3 options I prefer #1. A typical response structure is:-

2
==
2 = nat, F1
2NT = relay
... - 3 = min, 4+ clubs
... - 3 = min, 4+ diamonds
... - 3 = max, 4+ clubs
... - 3 = max, 4+ diamonds
... - 3NT = max, 0544 (an alternative here is to differentiate between 4 and 5+ diamonds)
3 = pass/correct
3 = good (inv+) raise
3 = PRE
--

2
==
2NT = relay
... - 3 = min, 4+ clubs
... - 3 = min, 4+ diamonds
... - 3 = max, 4+ clubs
... - 3 = max, 4+ diamonds
... - 3NT = max, 5044 (an alternative here is to differentiate between 4 and 5+ diamonds)
3 = pass/correct
3 = hearts, F1
3 = good (inv+) raise
3 = PRE
--

As you are worried about hands with both majors, you might also consider incorporating the assumed fit style into your repertoire, particularly NV. 2 showing 4+ and 4+ can be a very effective weapon. You can combine this with a variety of 2NT openings - natural, minors, + a minor, any 2 suits not including spades, etc. If you wish to know more about this style, including possible response structures, as well as other alternatives I would recommend Chris Ryall's website, which specialises in this area.
(-: Zel :-)
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#13 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2017-June-21, 14:40

Multi is a big loser in itself. Personally I don't think any 2M options are good enough to justify that loss.

Muiderburg I feel is particularly poor, being basically a tool for undisciplined players to justify opening even more crappy 5 card weak 2s.

Non-vul I can tolerate 2M as 8-11 6 cards and 2d as a crap weak 2, essentially a fert.
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#14 User is offline   phoenix214 

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Posted 2017-June-24, 14:20

Could offer:
A) 2M as 10-13
b) 2H as Flannery/Both majors weak, pick your flavor
2S as Both minors weak or strong
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