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Limited openings in Strong Club with 4 card Major Suggestions Needed

#1 User is offline   bgm 

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Posted 2017-June-15, 13:40

Partner and I want to try the approach of strong club with 4 card major.
The idea is originated from a very raw version of Blue club so we just want to make up a new system anyway.
I have very limited experience in playing and making up a strong club system like this, so I need some suggestions.

At the moment we need to fix the opening framework first:

1 = 17+ BAL or 16+ UNBAL
1 = ? (we accept the minimum number of can be zero)
1M = 4+M, we want to include 4M BAL and 4M5m hand here(*)
1NT = 14-16, 5M/6m possible
2x = ? (can be all used without preempt)

I know that if I include 4M BAL and 4M5m hand into 1M opening, then it will be overloaded.
So I understand that I must unload some hand types to a two-level bid and 1 perhaps.
We are willing to sacrifice those 2-level preemptive bids.
From the previous BBO post I see that some may suggest to use 2M as 10-15 6+M opener, so that some 4M5m and 5M4m hand can be distinguished.
But that is not enough yet.

So do you have any suggestions about how to allocate the hand types? Or do you have any source that can suggest us to read?
Thanks again.
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#2 User is online   nige1 

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Posted 2017-June-15, 14:19

View Postbgm, on 2017-June-15, 13:40, said:

Partner and I want to try the approach of strong club with 4 card major. The idea is originated from a very raw version of Blue club so we just want to make up a new system anyway.I have very limited experience in playing and making up a strong club system like this, so I need some suggestions. At the moment we need to fix the opening framework first:

1 = 17+ BAL or 16+ UNBAL
1 = ? (we accept the minimum number of can be zero)
1M = 4+M, we want to include 4M BAL and 4M5m hand here(*)
1NT = 14-16, 5M/6m possible
2x = ? (can be all used without preempt)

I know that if I include 4M BAL and 4M5m hand into 1M opening, then it will be overloaded. So I understand that I must unload some hand types to a two-level bid and 1 perhaps. We are willing to sacrifice those 2-level preemptive bids. From the previous BBO post I see that some may suggest to use 2M as 10-15 6+M opener, so that some 4M5m and 5M4m hand can be distinguished. But that is not enough yet.So do you have any suggestions about how to allocate the hand types? Or do you have any source that can suggest us to read?

Look at Jasmine, my attempt at such a system (with special openings for hands with 4M and 5+ m).
  • 1 = ART. 16+.
  • 1 = ART. 8-15, 4+ m, includes 13-15 (4441)s.
  • 1M = NAT, 8-15, 4+ cards (with equal length M and m, we open 1M (unless 13-15 4441).
  • 1N = NAT. 13-15 (Seats 1 & 2). 15-17 (seats 3 & 4).
  • 2 = ART. 8-12, 4+ both ms.
  • 2 = ART. Multi. 5-10, 6+ either M.
  • 2M = NAT. 8-11, 4 card-suit, 5+ either m.
  • 2N = ART, 5-10, 5+ , 5+ other.
  • 3any = NAT. Weak. 5-10 good suit (seats 1/2), Anything (seat 3), Solid (seat 4).
  • 3N = ART, Specific ace ask or if that is too hard to remember then Good major pre-empt.
  • 4any = NAT, Weak pre-empt

On reflection, I think the low-level replies to 1 are a bit over-complex. It might be better to revert to an earlier simpler version:
  • - 1 = ART. 0-7.
  • - 1 = ART. 8+. 4+ s. 0-3 s. Then 1/1N = REL.
  • - 1 = ART. 8+ . 4+ s. 0-3 s. Then 1N = REL.
  • - 1N = ART. 8+ . 4+ s & 4+ s. Then 2 = REL.
  • - 2 = ART. 8+ . 0-3 s & 0-3 s. Then 2 = REL.

We played the whole system, only a few times; but it worked OK.
Anyway, Good Luck :)
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#3 User is offline   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2017-June-15, 14:52

Playing 4-cd majors, the bonus is that now opening 1 promises 4 or more . You can also make it unbalanced, guarantees a singleton or void. If you are adventuresome you can play Canape, bid your 4-cd suit before a 5-cd suit with 10-15 hcp hands. Canaping into a major from 1 should be on the high side of 14-15 hcp.

There are many options for the 2-bids. I play Bailey 2-bids with one partner, 8-11 hcp with 6-cd major or 5-4. The bid promises 2 of the other major to allow partner to bail when void or singleton in your major.

In another partnership I play intermediate 2-bids, 10-14 hcp. Minors promise 6-cds or a strong 5-4 with both minors. Majors can be a good 5 or not so good 6 carder.
Ultra Relay: see Daniel's web page: http://bridgewithdan...stems/Ultra.pdf

C3: Copious Canape - Improved version of Ultra Relay, notes not posted yet.

Scrap heap: Canapé Attack System with Strong and 4-cd Major openings ...

Back to the Future? Using 1 &1 responses to Strong 1 as Positive Exclusion Color Bids.

NOW playing a Mosca (Nightmare-Fantunes like) system with canapé, 11-14 NT with Keri Invites and Bailey 2 bids, & 15+ 1 opener with transfer negatives @ 1-level & transfer positives @ the 2- and 3-levels. Canape after opening 1 or 1 (into a minor suit only). 3/1/17: Adding Nightmare Canape responses to 1 opening.
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#4 User is offline   spotlight7 

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Posted 2017-June-15, 18:06

I played the forcing club "canapé into minors only" system of Sabine Auken.


Google BridgeFILES Click in the right upper side on Search bridgeFILES WEB - SITES

Their system is the second one down on the right side of the next screen

Auken/von Arnim


1C* is 16+ or 17+ if 1NT is 14-16.


10-12 NT 1st and 2nd seats NV 14-16 other seats and when Vul.


4 card majors "canapé into minors" only.

1D is 2+ only if exactly 3=3=2=5 shape.


I modified it later to hopefully solve some problem type hands.
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#5 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2017-June-15, 18:06

I played a system exactly like this when I lived in the UK. We opened 4M5C hands 1M, and 2C = 6+C (or 45 minors), 2D = 6+D. 1D was 2+ as it could be (and was most often) a weak NT. Although the 1M openings could be 4, responder generally treated them as 5; when opener was 4M5C (or 4414 in the case of 1H) he would suggest NT later on. It worked OK, but I didn't really like it too much as it was never clear whether opener had longer or shorter clubs after 1M-1NT; 2C, and 2D rarely came up for some reason (though it was very useful when it did). We did consider making 1S always 5 by opening 4315 hands 1D.

I'm not sold on the idea of playing 2M = 4M longer m as it seems you'll be playing at the 3-level a lot (contrasted with Muiderberg-style 5M4+m where responder will pass 2M a lot). Still, I haven't played it so maybe it works better in practice than I think.

ahydra
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#6 User is offline   spotlight7 

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Posted 2017-June-15, 18:15

You might want to look into Roman Club. 4 card majors and canapé.

The system is somewhat outdated, however, some of the bidding ideas are interesting.


I like 1red-1M-1NT shows a minimum and 5+ in the major bid.

1red-1M-2M raise is 15-16 and 5+ trumps.


Balanced hands of 12-16 open 1C*. Hands with 4Cs and a longer

suit(17+) also open 1C* and rebid 2C*. Rare hands with really

strong values open 1C and jump shift after 1C*-1D*(much liked

a standard 2C* opener and bids the main suit next)


1N is 17-20 ;)
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#7 User is offline   spotlight7 

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Posted 2017-June-15, 18:22

The Hacket brothers from England played a canapé method.


I liked how they handled certain hands.

1 non club-2 of a higher suit-2NT* showed a canapé into clubs.


If opener was minimum, he could pass a 3C bid by responder.

With extra values, opener would keep bidding after ...2N*-3C


With bal. hands, they bid 1 non club-2 of a higher suit-3C* showed a 15+ NT hand


They opened 1N with 12-14 so opening 1 non club and rebiding NT was 15+
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#8 User is online   nige1 

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Posted 2017-June-15, 18:29

View Postahydra, on 2017-June-15, 18:06, said:

I'm not sold on the idea of playing 2M = 4M longer m as it seems you'll be playing at the 3-level a lot (contrasted with Muiderberg-style 5M4+m where responder will pass 2M a lot). Still, I haven't played it so maybe it works better in practice than I think.

I agee with Ahydra that this convention is theoretically unsound but, for decades, we played it.. We called it Trypanosomiasis Twos. Because it started as part of our Tstetse Club system and it sent opponents to sleep. Although, we suggested a defence, most opponents ignored it. Anyway, at county and national level, it was a net-winner, in practice,.
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#9 User is offline   bgm 

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Posted 2017-June-15, 20:17

Thanks all for the input. I just reading the suggestions.

I have also been finding Auken/von Arnim. In their CC, they said "2nd-round minor bid ambiguous, may or may not be canape" so they do not care about the ambiguity when bidding 1M - 1X - 2m which could be 54 in either way? Is it quite a big loss? That is part of the reason I asked the question.

In Jasmine it directly move the 4M5m hand to 2M opener.

Any one try the Prooijen/Verhees system?

And thanks all about the idea, I will discuss with my friends and see if there are any follow up questions.
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#10 User is offline   spotlight7 

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Posted 2017-June-15, 23:10

We added Roman 2 bids to the Auken methods to clarify the canapé auctions.

2D/H/S show 5 in the suit bid and 4+ clubs@11-15HCP
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#11 User is offline   bgm 

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Posted 2017-June-15, 23:24

View Postspotlight7, on 2017-June-15, 23:10, said:

We added Roman 2 bids to the Auken methods to clarify the canapé auctions.

2D/H/S show 5 in the suit bid and 4+ clubs@11-15HCP


Yes I have been considered about this also. How about swapping it with the 1-suiter case so that 1x - 1y - 2x will show this 5x4C case?
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#12 User is offline   1Wishbone1 

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Posted 2017-June-16, 00:19

http://bridgefiles.n...ange%20Club.htm

I'm still lookin' for more details on this but some basic ideas are here.

NOTE: When I brought up the 'Net version on this, I got alternate characters. Out of frustration, I Downloaded the file in hopes of replacing the offending characters. When I opened the saved file - Behold! All was right with the world.

Good Luck!

CW
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#13 User is offline   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2017-June-16, 04:08

bgm said:

1497590647[/url]"]1497590647[/url]"]Yes I have been considered about this also. How about swapping it with the 1-suiter case so that 1x - 1y - 2x will show this 5x4C case?


That scheme doesn't work too well because you need it to show an unbalanced 5M hand. Another poor approach is for the major opener to rebid in NT with 5M and 4 hand, but that usually gets too high when responder's first response is 1NT.

Edit: And opener has to raise to 2NT to show that hand. 7/29/17
Ultra Relay: see Daniel's web page: http://bridgewithdan...stems/Ultra.pdf

C3: Copious Canape - Improved version of Ultra Relay, notes not posted yet.

Scrap heap: Canapé Attack System with Strong and 4-cd Major openings ...

Back to the Future? Using 1 &1 responses to Strong 1 as Positive Exclusion Color Bids.

NOW playing a Mosca (Nightmare-Fantunes like) system with canapé, 11-14 NT with Keri Invites and Bailey 2 bids, & 15+ 1 opener with transfer negatives @ 1-level & transfer positives @ the 2- and 3-levels. Canape after opening 1 or 1 (into a minor suit only). 3/1/17: Adding Nightmare Canape responses to 1 opening.
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#14 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2017-June-16, 04:45

Some Swedish systems has used this concept.

You could have a look at Magic Diamond which uses 1M openings showing:

a) Unbalanced with 4M and 4+m (so canapé hands with longer minor or 4441)
b) Unbalanced with 5+M
c) 5M332

They exclude balanced hands with 4M from 1M, which I think is necessary (I would say 1M is overloaded already as it is). Magic Diamond uses weak opening bids, but you could use the same 1M structure in a strong club system. They use transfer responses to 1M. Another system with the same 1M openings (but 11-16) is Hjorthornsklövern (not available in English, AFAIK). They use 1NT as a GF relay and 2C as a non-forcing, semi-balanced response. Both of these systems play the 2m openings as natural unbalanced, denying a 4-card major. Hjorthornsklövern uses the 1D opening as a weak NT, no other hand type.

Yet another Swedish system, inspired by Magic Diamond, is Nalle (not available in English). Their strong 1C starts at 15+, and their 1NT opening is 11-14. Their 1D opening show an unbalanced hand without a 4-card major (could be 0 diamonds, for instance with 3-2-0-8). All their two-level opening bids are preemptive in nature.

Carrot Club used strong club, and the one level openings showed 4+ cards (possibly balanced) and could all include longer clubs. They used 2M as Roman (5M and 4+C). Their 1NT opening showed 13-17 (13-14 without a major, or any 15-17).

Last but not least is Turnip Diamond which opens 1M with exactly four cards in the major (balanced or with longer side suit). They use a multi-coloured 1D opening, showing a 5+ major (but not both majors). They open 1NT with 13-16 (which I believe denies a four card major unless max). This seem similar to your system goals.

An extension of Turnip Diamond could be to play 1M as "convenient major", showing 3-4 cards if balanced or a canapé hand. Then you could have the following opening structure:

1C = 16+ unbal or 17+ bal
1D = 5+M, 10-15. Not both majors unless 5-5.
1M = 11-13 NT with 3-4 card major, or 10-15 unbal with 4M.
1NT = 14-16
2m = 6+m or 5m and 4om, 11-15.
2M = Weak.
2NT = 5-5 minors, 12-15.
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#15 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2017-June-16, 05:27

View PostKungsgeten, on 2017-June-16, 04:45, said:

Another system with the same 1M openings (but 11-16) is Hjorthornsklövern

Not Hjortronklövern?

('hjorthorn' (Swed.) = 'deer horn' (Eng.); 'hjortron' (Swed.) = 'cloudberry' (Eng.))
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#16 User is offline   spotlight7 

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Posted 2017-June-16, 06:10

View Post1Wishbone1, on 2017-June-16, 00:19, said:

http://bridgefiles.n...ange%20Club.htm

I'm still lookin' for more details on this but some basic ideas are here.

NOTE: When I brought up the 'Net version on this, I got alternate characters. Out of frustration, I Downloaded the file in hopes of replacing the offending characters. When I opened the saved file - Behold! All was right with the world.

Good Luck!

CW



Both the Orange and Black versions are Blue Team Club bidding.

I believe they do not reverse into majors. They also play a revesre type Flannery with 5S and 4H
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#17 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2017-June-16, 10:00

View Postnullve, on 2017-June-16, 05:27, said:

Not Hjortronklövern?

('hjorthorn' (Swed.) = 'deer horn' (Eng.); 'hjortron' (Swed.) = 'cloudberry' (Eng.))


Hjorthornsklövern (deer horn) and Hjortronklövern (cloudberry) are different systems but have the same inventor (Max Ödlund). Some Swedish system notes are available at www.maxbridge.se

Deer horn has a strong club, while Cloudberry (which is the original version) have a "Swedish Club"; 8-10 NT or strong in that case.
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#18 User is offline   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2017-June-17, 07:45

bgm said:

1497579443[/url]"]1497579443[/url]"]'Any one try the Prooijen/Verhees system?
http://bridgebase.co...en-club-system/
Ultra Relay: see Daniel's web page: http://bridgewithdan...stems/Ultra.pdf

C3: Copious Canape - Improved version of Ultra Relay, notes not posted yet.

Scrap heap: Canapé Attack System with Strong and 4-cd Major openings ...

Back to the Future? Using 1 &1 responses to Strong 1 as Positive Exclusion Color Bids.

NOW playing a Mosca (Nightmare-Fantunes like) system with canapé, 11-14 NT with Keri Invites and Bailey 2 bids, & 15+ 1 opener with transfer negatives @ 1-level & transfer positives @ the 2- and 3-levels. Canape after opening 1 or 1 (into a minor suit only). 3/1/17: Adding Nightmare Canape responses to 1 opening.
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#19 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2017-July-27, 05:57

View PostKungsgeten, on 2017-June-16, 04:45, said:

Last but not least is Turnip Diamond which opens 1M with exactly four cards in the major (balanced or with longer side suit). They use a multi-coloured 1D opening, showing a 5+ major (but not both majors). They open 1NT with 13-16 (which I believe denies a four card major unless max). This seem similar to your system goals.

An extension of Turnip Diamond could be to play 1M as "convenient major", showing 3-4 cards if balanced or a canapé hand. Then you could have the following opening structure:

1C = 16+ unbal or 17+ bal
1D = 5+M, 10-15. Not both majors unless 5-5.
1M = 11-13 NT with 3-4 card major, or 10-15 unbal with 4M.
1NT = 14-16
2m = 6+m or 5m and 4om, 11-15.
2M = Weak.
2NT = 5-5 minors, 12-15.

I played the following as a junior:

1 = 11-13 BAL, no major OR 16+ unBAL OR 17+ BAL
1 = 11-15, 5 M (exactly)
...1 = F1 relay
......1 = 5 S
......1N = 5H(332)
......2m = 5H4+m
......2 = Flannery
...(...)
1 = 11-13 BAL, 4 H OR 11-15, either 6+ H, 4H5+m, 4H(441) or 13(54)*
1 = 11-13 BAL, 4S3-H OR 11-15, either 6+ S, 4S5+m, 4144 or 31(54)*
1N = 14-16 BAL
2m = 11-15, 6+ m, no major
2M = weak
2N = 11-15, 5+D5+C

Not exactly a strong club system, but if you want to pretend you're playing one, then it helps that the 11-13 NT in 1 cannot contain a major (unlike in standard Swedish Club).

* Since the 1M opening only promises 3-4c "support" for M, the 2M "raise" should promise 4+ M unless you get a thrill out of possibly violating Burn's law. (I know I did. :))
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#20 User is offline   all loomis 

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Posted 2017-July-31, 17:40

1n- 12-15, all 433,533,443

1s- 12-15, 6c suit, or 5 + another suit.

1h- as 1s

1d- as 1s/h, but either minor

2c- 12-15, all 444.

2d- 16+, all 444.

2h- good weak 2, 8-11.

2s- as 2h.

1c- all 16+, except 2d.

a simple integrated system that works pretty well. 4c majors are masochism.
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