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Slow bidding options

#1 User is offline   A2003 

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Posted 2017-May-31, 18:19

What are the options? Is there a logical alternative bidding for this hand as North?


What are the options as North?
Is there a logical alternative bidding for this hand?
Is North must pass with this hand?
Can North bid 4NT to ask for ace and sign off at 5 level
with one ace and useful Q, This hand will make 6.

This post has been edited by barmar: 2017-June-02, 10:39
Reason for edit: Removed extra hand diagram

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#2 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2017-May-31, 19:09

So, the jump to 3!H shows what, about 17-20?

Then surely pass of 4 is an LA.
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#3 User is online   sfi 

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Posted 2017-May-31, 19:43

What did 3H show? What would other bids by South mean - is 3S forcing and is 4C/D natural or a cue for hearts? These affect what the hesitation suggests, but I would be surprised if pass were not a logical alternative.
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#4 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2017-May-31, 21:31

View Postsfi, on 2017-May-31, 19:43, said:

What did 3H show? What would other bids by South mean - is 3S forcing and is 4C/D natural or a cue for hearts? These affect what the hesitation suggests, but I would be surprised if pass were not a logical alternative.


Playing a normal US 2/1 GF system without anything like a Gazzilli 2, Opener's jump shift is 100% GF. Therefore, the hesitation could be for many reasons.
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#5 User is online   sfi 

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Posted 2017-May-31, 22:09

View Postneilkaz, on 2017-May-31, 21:31, said:

Playing a normal US 2/1 GF system without anything like a Gazzilli 2, Opener's jump shift is 100% GF. Therefore, the hesitation could be for many reasons.


Sure, but we don't know what this pair plays yet. We also don't know whether 3H shows 5/4 or 5/5 distribution, which is important.
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#6 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2017-June-01, 00:51

View Postneilkaz, on 2017-May-31, 21:31, said:

Playing a normal US 2/1 GF system without anything like a Gazzilli 2, Opener's jump shift is 100% GF.


I thought the point of playing Gazzilli was that a jump to 3 was GF because all the invitational hand are bid via 2, so without Gazzilli I have seen jumps to 3 made on rubbish 16 counts.
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#7 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2017-June-01, 02:17

I'm pretty sure that if partner hesitated AND 6 is on, most directors will adjust to 4 +2 without even consulting peers. PASS is certainly always a logical alternative if partners bid is not forcing.

In practical terms, if partner hesitates, then either passes or bids game, you should pass. This is how most TDs will interpret the situation especially if bidding on gives you a better score (and if it does not get a better score the TD will not be called!)

Cynical note. If you have a sub minimum for your bidding to date, a hesitation will shut up your ethical partner!

If you really are borderline between bidding/ not bidding or bidding game and cue bidding, and you realise that you have agonised for too long always take the positive action so you do not stymie your partner.
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#8 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-June-01, 09:56

That North hand is a 24.1 count on Kaplan and Rubens. Even so, partner has only bid of 4, hesitation or no hesitation. This is one of those situations where an advanced cue-bid of 4 or 4 comes into the equation, I feel, if partner has more than a minimum for their forcing 1NT response. So 4NT looks odd in my opinion.
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#9 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2017-June-01, 10:30

Agree with Badger. Partner made one of the weakest calls available so pass is not only a LA it is probably the best call. With something like xx Qxxx xxx Axxx wouldn't he have bid 4C?
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#10 User is offline   RD350LC 

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Posted 2017-June-01, 10:47

View PostGrahamJson, on 2017-June-01, 10:30, said:

Agree with Badger. Partner made one of the weakest calls available so pass is not only a LA it is probably the best call. With something like xx Qxxx xxx Axxx wouldn't he have bid 4C?

I agree 100% with this comment. Partner likely has a bad 6 hcp, maybe even 5 or 4 hcp, with just a heart preference. There is NO reason to go beyond 4, as it could be the last makeable contract.
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#11 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2017-June-01, 10:52

I have possibly a loser in every suit.

On the vast majority of hands where partner can cover 3/4 of my problems he would make a slam try.
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For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
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#12 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-June-01, 11:38

in my opinion,North does not have a hand which warrants a 4NT Blackwood bid,leave alone the hesitation by South.If it's an established partnership,South would certainly have cue bid an Ace if he had one,with a suitable hand.North has no other bid than a simple Pass.
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#13 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2017-June-01, 13:14

Fast pass.

South can have some pretty ugly hands that bid 1nt because of spade shortness. Until they hitch of course.
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#14 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-June-01, 13:40

North has a 3 loser hand, but bidding over 4still doesn't sound right. After hesitation it looks much better.
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#15 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2017-June-01, 14:32

With the hitch, I think North ought to pass 4H.

Sure, partner could have hesitated because he has only three hearts and was considering NT, or because he has 3S and 4H and wanted to figure out what trump suit was best, but it's likely that he was considering a stronger bid than 4H (most folks play some sort of 4m cue bids here). So that means that the hitch carried the suggestion that South had more than a junk raise, which suggests bidding on. Since (in my opinion), pass is a LA, North ought to do so.

Without the hitch, I'm not so sure passing is clear-cut. Partner ought to have 4 hearts, in which case as little as Jx Jxxx Axxx xxx makes slam a decent shot (and the Qh makes it almost icy).

Cheers,
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#16 User is offline   m1cha 

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Posted 2017-June-01, 16:19

It seems I have a minority opinion here. Hearts support is the best thing that can happen to me. It should be 4+ cards and this support alone makes the N hand a kind of GF opener with > 50 % chance of making game even if partner had promised no points at all. Now add 6 - 7 HCP, I'd find it's definitely an LA to bid 4NT here. Pass may also be an LA but I'd put into question which of the two LAs might more be influenced by the hitch.

I'd also ask about the quality of the partnership. If they were advanced enough to understand 4 or 4 as a cue bid with support(!), I may say North should have passed but this doesn't seem to be the case because South actually had the ace but failed to bid it.

View PostA2003, on 2017-May-31, 18:19, said:

Can North bid 4NT to ask for ace and sign off at 5 level
with one ace and useful Q,

No? Because with one ace and Q the bidding should be beyond 5?

If I'm wrong here, 'no' anyway. If I signed off in 5 opposite an ace and Q, it would mean I bid 4NT just for the rare case that South has both A and A (and not found a way to express supreme support). In that case I would guess raising 4 to 5 via 4NT is not worth the risk. Hearing an ace and Q and then signing off in 5 (if I could) is not an LA to me.
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#17 User is offline   m1cha 

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Posted 2017-June-01, 16:28

View PostThe_Badger, on 2017-June-01, 09:56, said:

That North hand is a 24.1 count on Kaplan and Rubens. Even so, partner has only bid of 4, hesitation or no hesitation. This is one of those situations where an advanced cue-bid of 4 or 4 comes into the equation, I feel, if partner has more than a minimum for their forcing 1NT response. So 4NT looks odd in my opinion.

Hm. You started so nicely ;) ! Let's assume 3 means 19+ total points which is what GIB does. Now South bids 4 and you hold not 19 points but 24.1. No slam try?
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#18 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2017-June-02, 04:39

N cannot have more than 2, if 3 can be bid on 4 he probably has 4 but how does he bid



He does not want to bid 3N, so chooses 4. The last thing he wants to hear is 4N!
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#19 User is offline   xbabarx 

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Posted 2017-June-02, 05:01

bid key cards and hope for good
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#20 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-June-02, 10:44

View PostGrahamJson, on 2017-June-01, 10:30, said:

Agree with Badger. Partner made one of the weakest calls available so pass is not only a LA it is probably the best call. With something like xx Qxxx xxx Axxx wouldn't he have bid 4C?

It depends on whether that's a cue bid in support of hearts or a weak hand with long clubs.

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