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Opps open 4H Sanity check

Poll: Opps open 4H (41 member(s) have cast votes)

Which calls do you agree with?

  1. initial double (21 votes [17.21%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.21%

  2. S's second round pass (37 votes [30.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 30.33%

  3. N's pass after 4S was doubled (31 votes [25.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.41%

  4. S's final pass (33 votes [27.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 27.05%

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#1 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2017-May-18, 05:18

matchpoints.


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#2 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2017-May-18, 05:27

Unlucky, but I'd bid the same way. X and 4S seem perfectly normal to me.

#3 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2017-May-18, 05:45

i have some symapthy with it but I think south's double without a 4th spade and opposite a passed hand at the 4 level is just too much. If it was 1h or even 2h of course double but 4h it seems too high to me!
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#4 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-May-18, 08:01

Does anybody respect the double and remove ? I'd be tempted.
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#5 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2017-May-18, 08:07

Given that if you switch the North and West hands 4 still goes down the initial double is too much and as south I would not like my chances if my passed hand partner had pulled to 5m (even worse diamonds) instead.

That's hindsight though and something I have been guilty of from time to time.
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#6 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-May-18, 08:42

View Posteagles123, on 2017-May-18, 05:45, said:

i have some symapthy with it but I think south's double without a 4th spade and opposite a passed hand at the 4 level is just too much. If it was 1h or even 2h of course double but 4h it seems too high to me!


Agreed.

You pay the cost to be the boss. That double is out of order. 4♥X means partner has to bid his best suit and South's hand can't really support a 4 card♠ suit.

There is no way to know that South's hand is better suited for the minors with the bidding structure we see here. 4♠ is the logical cheapest bid to describe North's hand.
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#7 User is online   wank 

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Posted 2017-May-18, 08:49

south can't double with this. it's hardly a shock that you convert +50 to minus whatever.
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#8 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-May-18, 10:27

Double is simply not warranted with the South hand; there is no good reason to believe 4H won't make, and no good reason to believe our side is missing a game. Pass is pretty simple once you look at the hand that way.
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#9 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-May-18, 11:33

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-May-18, 10:27, said:

Double is simply not warranted with the South hand; there is no good reason to believe 4H won't make, and no good reason to believe our side is missing a game. Pass is pretty simple once you look at the hand that way.


But for South to call PASS is oh so hard in today's modern bridge environment. That is a sign of weakness when South allows the opponents to jam up his team's contract without punishing them for interference.

:)

Of course, PASS it is the correct call, but I had to throw that in there.
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#10 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-May-18, 11:53

View Postdiana_eva, on 2017-May-18, 05:27, said:

Unlucky, but I'd bid the same way. X and 4S seem perfectly normal to me.

Agree with diana_eva although on a good day, North might pass South's double.
South hand posted to BridgeWinners as a Bidding Poll






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#11 User is offline   silvr bull 

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Posted 2017-May-18, 12:10

I can't honestly answer the poll questions because I have seen all the hands and it colors my judgement. If I was given only the South hand and the P P 4H bids, I would mentally flip a coin to decide between pass or double. My guess is that if only the South hand was presented here, there would be more votes for double than the 4 now shown. Similarly, if given only the North hand and asked what to do after 4H on my left and double by partner, I would not have an easy decision between pass or 4S. My view is that the pass or double and the pass or 4S decisions are very close in expected value.
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#12 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-May-18, 13:25

South's hand is a tough one to bid. Like others, I think the lack of a 4th tips the balance towards pass rather than double.

If you double, North is almost always going to bid 4 with a 4 card suit and you're in a pickle as to what to do. With RHO preempting, it less likely that will break evenly enough for 4 to play well on a 7 card fit.

Pass also gives you side an additional option. Partner just might find a reopening 4 call which would settle what the strain should be.
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#13 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2017-May-18, 16:33

IIRC this is one of the hand types Phil King's investigated in extreme detail, and concluded that to X you should have an upper-end strong NT or better (not a good description of this hand, IMO), or a 4th spade.
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#14 User is offline   Nabooba 

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Posted 2017-May-19, 00:08

South does not have a double.
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#15 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2017-May-19, 02:16

View Postsilvr bull, on 2017-May-18, 12:10, said:

I can't honestly answer the poll questions because I have seen all the hands and it colors my judgement.

Yes, maybe I should have posted it as a one-hand problem. I chose to present the whole deal because my partner (who is a very good player) thought that my initial double was ok but that I should have bid 5 after 4 was doubled.

I found that surprising - I thought that my initial double was the most questionable call.

Thanks to Nige1 for posting it as a 1-hand problem on BridgeWinners. Apparently, most chose to double in that setting although there have not been so many hi-profile players voting so far (Kieran Dyke and John Diamond dbl, while Joshua Donn passes).
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#16 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2017-May-19, 03:27

At the 4 level a double cannot be 100% takeout and I hold North responsible for taking out the double. 4 -1 is going to happen way more often than 4 making. You expect the doubler to have at least 3 defensive tricks and your hand will provide 1 or 2.

If you think that partner can only double when 4 is a make opposite your hand then you are in for a long wait.

I think the other key here is the scoring method. At matchpoints converting +50 to +100 is huge At IMPS South should pass like a shot
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#17 User is offline   silvr bull 

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Posted 2017-May-19, 06:05

View Posthelene_t, on 2017-May-19, 02:16, said:

my partner (who is a very good player) thought that my initial double was ok but that I should have bid 5 after 4 was doubled.

I found that surprising - I thought that my initial double was the most questionable call.

A comment about pulling 4SX to 5C surprises me too. Would he have made the same comment if his hand was J9xxxx x J9xx Kx? I think his decision to pass 4HX or correct to 4S is at least as difficult as the initial double or pass decision.
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#18 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-May-19, 07:42

We play optional double at game level opening preempt.With a passed partner I , as South,would double at match points but pass at IMP scoring.It is not very incorrect for North if he makes a rather unfortunate decision to bid 4S rather than a pass.It is a borderline decision.
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#19 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2017-May-19, 07:58

The double is close and I wouldn't criticise anyone who passed, although I think I would be a doubler. The 4S bid is however very questionable. You don't expect more than 8 trumps between N and S with maybe 10 between E and W, so if 4S is making 4H is probably two off and if 4H is making 4S is certainly also at least two off. As the bidding went there is no way S should be bidding further except perhaps trying 4NT when west's double comes round to him, asking north to try a minor suit. That of course might not improve matters but may be worth the risk.
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#20 User is offline   RD350LC 

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Posted 2017-May-19, 08:04

View Postdiana_eva, on 2017-May-18, 05:27, said:

Unlucky, but I'd bid the same way. X and 4S seem perfectly normal to me.

I tend to agree. Hindsight is always 20/20.
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