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Why does 1H-1S-2D show 5 hearts and 4 diamonds?

#21 User is offline   OldGranton 

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Posted 2017-May-17, 04:09

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Based on the pros and cons provided in this thread by generous volunteers, I've arrived at the following scheme:

    * Follow the strict rules relating to NT bids and rebids. This includes bidding NT with rubbish doubletons and 3-card suits.
    * With 4441 and four diamonds, open 1D - otherwise open 1C.

The second item is recommended in the book "Acol from Scratch".

The author says:

    * If responder bids a major, raise.
    * If responder bids 1NT, Pass. ( !! )
    * If responder bids 2C, rebid 2D. Responder will pass only with exactly 10 points and therefore has no 4-card major. So responder will nearly always hold three diamonds.

I don't understand the third item, but I'll go along with it and blame him for any disasters :)

Thanks for all the help.
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#22 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-May-17, 04:45

View PostOldGranton, on 2017-May-17, 04:09, said:


* With 4441 and four diamonds, open 1D - otherwise open 1C.



With a singleton heart it is best to open 1. You plan to bid 1 over a 1 or a 1 reply. If partner responds 1NT, this should promise at least a four-card club suit, so rebid 2 with a minimum opening.

The rule then becomes: "With 4441 and a red singleton, open one club. With 4441 and a black singleton, open one diamond".
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#23 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-May-17, 04:49

View PostOldGranton, on 2017-May-17, 04:09, said:

I don't understand the third item, but I'll go along with it and blame him for any disasters :)

Your opening scheme is basically my choice too, although, as previously mentioned, I make the 1 - 2; 2 sequence forcing, which helps with a few problem hands (at the cost of adding certain issues).

The rationale for Responder not having a 4 card major when minimum is that the writer plays a Responder's Reverse, ie 1 - 2; 2 - 2M, as game forcing, meaning that any hand with a 4 card major and less than game-forcing values would have responded 1M rather than 2 to the 1 opening. Of course Responder could still be 3325 or 3316, although the latter is probably meant to rebid 3 over 2, leaving only the 3325 pattern without 3 diamonds (and perhaps he also plays a natural 2NT response to cover some of those hands too).
(-: Zel :-)
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#24 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-May-17, 04:59

View PostTramticket, on 2017-May-17, 04:45, said:

With a singleton heart it is best to open 1. You plan to bid 1 over a 1 or a 1 reply. If partner responds 1NT, this should promise at least a four-card club suit, so rebid 2 with a minimum opening.

The rule then becomes: "With 4441 and a red singleton, open one club. With 4441 and a black singleton, open one diamond".

Are you confident rebidding 1NT after 1 - (1) - X - (P) on xxxx x AQxx AQxx? Would you not like to have the option of rebidding 2 having opened 1? "Best" is something of an overbid here. Both methods have advantages and the majority of experts appear to prefer the 1 opening method over 1. The disadvantages of 1 are less in a 4444 system but the upside (mainly finding a diamond fit after a 1 response while finding the corresponding club fit after a 1 opening can be tricky) is small enough not to dominant the downside even here.
(-: Zel :-)
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#25 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-May-17, 05:24

View PostZelandakh, on 2017-May-17, 04:59, said:

Are you confident rebidding 1NT after 1 - (1) - X - (P) on xxxx x AQxx AQxx? Would you not like to have the option of rebidding 2 having opened 1? "Best" is something of an overbid here. Both methods have advantages and the majority of experts appear to prefer the 1 opening method over 1. The disadvantages of 1 are less in a 4444 system but the upside (mainly finding a diamond fit after a 1 response while finding the corresponding club fit after a 1 opening can be tricky) is small enough not to dominant the downside even here.


Interesting example! I usually play a weak NT and a 1NT rebid shows 15+ (with a bit of flexibility in competitive auctions) so I wouldn't rebid 1NT on a 12-count with no spade stop. I'm close to passing this hand - but with two aces I guess I open 1 and rebid 2 in the hypothetical auction. Horrible!
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#26 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-May-18, 08:58

View PostTramticket, on 2017-May-17, 05:24, said:

Horrible!

But not horrible enough to make you consider opening this hand 1 instead? ;)
(-: Zel :-)
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#27 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-May-18, 13:34

We go with the "open diamonds if you have them" method for 4441s.
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#28 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-May-18, 14:47

View PostZelandakh, on 2017-May-18, 08:58, said:

But not horrible enough to make you consider opening this hand 1 instead? ;)


You are well aware that you have constructed a specific hand and auction to make life awkward :)

You could equally well construct a hand where you miss a club slam by opening 1D (opening 1C allows you to find a fit in either minor). Constructive bidding will generally work better if you open 1C. Overall I stand by the 1C opening.

(Even on the hand quoted, the rebid may be easier depending upon what is promised by partner's negative double, and whether a 2D rebid promises extra values over the negative double).
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#29 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-May-19, 03:42

View PostTramticket, on 2017-May-18, 14:47, said:

You are well aware that you have constructed a specific hand and auction to make life awkward :)

You could equally well construct a hand where you miss a club slam by opening 1D (opening 1C allows you to find a fit in either minor). Constructive bidding will generally work better if you open 1C. Overall I stand by the 1C opening.

(Even on the hand quoted, the rebid may be easier depending upon what is promised by partner's negative double, and whether a 2D rebid promises extra values over the negative double).

Well yes but only because it is so well documented and I was aware of the issue. It is not exactly an unusual hand within the context.

The club slam is much less common as hands in the slam zone will usually be strong enough to bring that suit into the auction. More likely would be missing a better partial (with 2NT perhaps going down) or a 5 contract with 3NT out of the picture (or the opps bidding to 4M).

One further option here that might address concerns on both sides would be to open 1 with hands in the (11)12-14 range and 1 with 15+ hands. How does that sound?
(-: Zel :-)
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#30 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-May-19, 04:58

View PostZelandakh, on 2017-May-19, 03:42, said:

Well yes but only because it is so well documented and I was aware of the issue. It is not exactly an unusual hand within the context.

The club slam is much less common as hands in the slam zone will usually be strong enough to bring that suit into the auction. More likely would be missing a better partial (with 2NT perhaps going down) or a 5 contract with 3NT out of the picture (or the opps bidding to 4M).

One further option here that might address concerns on both sides would be to open 1 with hands in the (11)12-14 range and 1 with 15+ hands. How does that sound?


Sounds a lot better. But I'm not opening 11 point 4441 hands. Even some 12 point hands are worth a pass in my book.
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#31 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-May-19, 06:49

View PostTramticket, on 2017-May-19, 04:58, said:

Sounds a lot better. But I'm not opening 11 point 4441 hands. Even some 12 point hands are worth a pass in my book.

Never say never! ;) Would you really not consider opening a hand like AT98 T AT98 KT98 under any circumstances?
(-: Zel :-)
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#32 User is offline   OldGranton 

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Posted 2017-May-24, 05:27

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It looks as if the dust has settled on the minor jousting between Zelandach and Tramticket. So, here's my new plan for 4441, based on this compromise by Zelandach:


View PostZelandakh, on 2017-May-19, 03:42, said:

One further option here that might address concerns on both sides would be to open 1 with hands in the (11)12-14 range and 1 with 15+ hands.


and this acceptance by Tramticket:


View PostTramticket, on 2017-May-19, 04:58, said:

Sounds a lot better.


So, my new rule for 4441 hands is now:

  • With 12-14 points, open Diamonds if you have them - otherwise open Clubs.
  • With 15+ points, open Clubs if you have them - otherwise open Diamonds.


Thanks.
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#33 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-May-24, 06:10

View PostOldGranton, on 2017-May-24, 05:27, said:

With 15+ points, open Clubs if you have them - otherwise open Diamonds.

This is fine if you are willing to reverse 1 - 1; 2 with a 1444 15 count but otherwise I would suggest opening that shape (singleton ) with 1 for all ranges. That gives:-
  • With 12-14 points, open diamonds if you have them - otherwise open clubs
  • With 15+ points, open clubs if you have a red singleton, open diamonds with a black singleton

(-: Zel :-)
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#34 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-May-24, 09:31

View PostZelandakh, on 2017-May-24, 06:10, said:

This is fine if you are willing to reverse 1 - 1; 2 with a 1444 15 count but otherwise I would suggest opening that shape (singleton ) with 1 for all ranges. That gives:-
  • With 12-14 points, open diamonds if you have them - otherwise open clubs
  • With 15+ points, open clubs if you have a red singleton, open diamonds with a black singleton



Yes, I would always open 1 with a spade singleton. As Zel points out, you don't want to open 1 and rebid a 2 reverse over a 1 response.

You probably have an overload of information by now. If so, ignore the next bit! There is another possibility for you with 15+ hands (given that you play Acol and presumably a weak NT). You can treat the hand as balanced if partner responds in your singleton and rebid no trumps. This approach needs to be used with care and discussed with partner! The danger is that partner will leap to game in your singleton expecting you to hold at least a doubleton. If the singleton is in a minor this is not usually a risk: with a singleton club, I would open 1 and rebid 2NT if partner responds 2. With a singleton heart you will always choose to rebid 1 - preferring to show your four-card major.

The tricky case is when you hold a singleton spade. Pairs who open 1 with a singleton spade will usually choose to rebid 1NT (15-17) or 2NT (18-19) - this will need partner to be aware of this style and modify the continuations to allow for a possible singleton spade. This is playable, but it's not my taste and I prefer to open 1 with a singleton spade.
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