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Fourth Suit Forcing Responder's priorities

#1 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2017-April-29, 01:09

I am studying FSF responses. Andrew Robson says:

1. Bid responder's suit with 3 card support, or, if not...
2. Bid his own second suit with 5 cards, or, if not...
3. Bid his first suit with 6 cards, or, if not....
4. Bid No Trumps with a stopper in the bid suit, or, if not...

If none of the above you have to find a bid so..

5. Bid responder's suit with a good doubleton, or
6. Bid own first suit with a good 5 card suit.

Others say that priority is generally given to showing a stop in the bid suit.

What would you respond in these examples:

1.


2.


3.


4.

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#2 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2017-April-29, 02:19

Andy is right. This ought to be unanimous. We find our fit first and look for stoppers aftwards. This princiole always applies as long as qe don't bypass 3nt.
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#3 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2017-April-29, 04:56

My view (rightly or wrongly) is that it is better to emphasis your shape to FSF if the stop isn't a three card suit to an honour (AKQ). There are two important things to realise with FSF: A) it is nowadays unconditionally game forcing, and, B) responder might have an actual 4th suit, but requires other information to judge where the best contract lies.

Emphasising your shape then bidding 3NT should say 'This is what my hand shape is like but I have a stop of sorts but it's either a singleton ace or doubleton king

1) 2 simple 3 card preference
2) 2 rebid good suit
3) 3 showing 5-5 shape
4) 3 showing 5-5 shape
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#4 User is offline   SteveMoe 

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Posted 2017-April-29, 08:18

View PostFelicityR, on 2017-April-29, 04:56, said:

My view (rightly or wrongly) is that it is better to emphasis your shape to FSF if the stop isn't a three card suit to an honour (AKQ). There are two important things to realise with FSF: A) it is nowadays unconditionally game forcing, and, B) responder might have an actual 4th suit, but requires other information to judge where the best contract lies.

Emphasising your shape then bidding 3NT should say 'This is what my hand shape is like but I have a stop of sorts but it's either a singleton ace or doubleton king

1) 2 simple 3 card preference
2) 2 rebid good suit
3) 3 showing 5-5 shape
4) 3 showing 5-5 shape


This.

Adding that you should raise the 4th suit with 4+ cards (2N or rarely 3N should show a stopper fragment, not length). You will come out ahead when partner's 4th suit is natural.
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#5 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-April-29, 09:26

View PostFelicityR, on 2017-April-29, 04:56, said:

1) 2 simple 3 card preference
2) 2 rebid good suit
3) 3 showing 5-5 shape
4) 3 showing 5-5 shape

+1 for the rebids over FSF.

With FSF, the idea is to make a descriptive bid to help find the right strain for the contract. With all the examples, responder should have a very good picture of opener's hand and can move to place the contract or explore further.
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#6 User is offline   Kaitlyn S 

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Posted 2017-April-29, 09:40

View PostSteveMoe, on 2017-April-29, 08:18, said:

This.

Adding that you should raise the 4th suit with 4+ cards (2N or rarely 3N should show a stopper fragment, not length). You will come out ahead when partner's 4th suit is natural.
Many pairs raise the 4th suit with 4+ cards if it's a major (usually hearts) because it's easy for the heart fit to get lost otherwise when opener is 1-4-4-4 (1D-1S-2C-2H...) but will "raise" the minor to show no good bid in a minor

Such as 1H-1S-2C-2D-3D on
S-5
H-AQ643
D-742
C-KQJ5, which allows the other bids to show something (2H shows six, 3C shows 5, 2NT shows a stopper, etc.)


and on your examples, I make the "obvious" bids 2S, 2H, 3H, 3C.
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#7 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2017-April-29, 10:20

View Posthelene_t, on 2017-April-29, 02:19, said:

Andy is right. This ought to be unanimous. We find our fit first and look for stoppers aftwards. This princiole always applies as long as qe don't bypass 3nt.

I agree, as long as responders suit is a major,
which it usually is.
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#8 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2017-April-29, 12:01

View PostFelicityR, on 2017-April-29, 04:56, said:

My view (rightly or wrongly) is that it is better to emphasis your shape to FSF if the stop isn't a three card suit to an honour (AKQ). There are two important things to realise with FSF: A) it is nowadays unconditionally game forcing, and, B) responder might have an actual 4th suit, but requires other information to judge where the best contract lies.

Has the reason for the trend towards FSF being unconditionally game forcing anything to do with it allowing you two bites at the cherry with a game going hand? I can't quite think it through but there has to be a good reason for giving up FSF with an invitational hand.
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#9 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2017-April-29, 12:55

View PostLiversidge, on 2017-April-29, 12:01, said:

Has the reason for the trend towards FSF being unconditionally game forcing anything to do with it allowing you two bites at the cherry with a game going hand? I can't quite think it through but there has to be a good reason for giving up FSF with an invitational hand.

One reason peoble play FSF as GF is, that those peoble believe to be simpler,
which is not true, but they still believe it.
You need less discussion, when a seq. becomes GF, but you still need to discuss,
what auctions show add. strength, this will beautomatically disussed, if you play
FSF as inv.+

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#10 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-April-29, 18:57

This should be unanimousas FelicityR answered. The shape is clear, the only question is whether to show stopper. As the only hands with a stopper it is a singleton Ace, which isn't very good as stoppers go. Plus more important to show shape.
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#11 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2017-April-29, 22:57

View Poststeve2005, on 2017-April-29, 18:57, said:

This should be unanimousas FelicityR answered. The shape is clear, the only question is whether to show stopper. As the only hands with a stopper it is a singleton Ace, which isn't very good as stoppers go. Plus more important to show shape.

Would it make a difference if partner's suit was a minor?
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#12 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2017-April-30, 01:28

View PostLiversidge, on 2017-April-29, 22:57, said:

Would it make a difference if partner's suit was a minor?


Not as far as I'm aware, but (as far as I am aware, please correct me if i'm wrong) there is only one scenario where the 4th suit is not forcing to game: the auction 1 - 1 - 1 - 1, and on this occasion the 1 bid is an actual suit.
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#13 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2017-April-30, 03:04

View PostFelicityR, on 2017-April-30, 01:28, said:

Not as far as I'm aware, but (as far as I am aware, please correct me if i'm wrong) there is only one scenario where the 4th suit is not forcing to game: the auction 1 - 1 - 1 - 1, and on this occasion the 1 bid is an actual suit.

Some 'sources' suggest that with a stop in the fourth suit then preference should only be given to supporting responder's suit with 3 cards provided it is a major.

Marlowe has given one reason for having an agreement where FSF is always game forcing (except for the example you give) even if bid at the 2 level. I'd like to know if there are other reasons.
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#14 User is offline   Joe_Old 

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Posted 2017-April-30, 08:29

View PostLiversidge, on 2017-April-30, 03:04, said:

Some 'sources' suggest that with a stop in the fourth suit then preference should only be given to supporting responder's suit with 3 cards provided it is a major.

Marlowe has given one reason for having an agreement where FSF is always game forcing (except for the example you give) even if bid at the 2 level. I'd like to know if there are other reasons.


When you play FSF as a GF, the rule of fast arrival doesn't apply. Since responder's hand is unlimited, opener makes minimum bids with minimum openers, but jumps with extras. For example, 1 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 3NT should show 15-17 semi-balanced (1534 or the like).
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#15 User is offline   Joe_Old 

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Posted 2017-April-30, 08:31

duplicate
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#16 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2017-April-30, 09:30

View PostJoe_Old, on 2017-April-30, 08:29, said:

When you play FSF as a GF, the rule of fast arrival doesn't apply. Since responder's hand is unlimited, opener makes minimum bids with minimum openers, but jumps with extras. For example, 1 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 3NT should show 15-17 semi-balanced (1534 or the like).

Ah! That makes a lot of sense. If responder has 16-17 HCP he can respond to opener's 3NT with a slam asking 4NT, which he can't do if FSF is not GF.

Many thanks - it's been bugging me for days!
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#17 User is offline   Joe_Old 

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Posted 2017-April-30, 13:04

View PostLiversidge, on 2017-April-30, 09:30, said:

Ah! That makes a lot of sense. If responder has 16-17 HCP he can respond to opener's 3NT with a slam asking 4NT, which he can't do if FSF is not GF.

Many thanks - it's been bugging me for days!


Glad to help. Semi-balanced or balanced 16 HCP opposite 16 HCP hands are notoriously difficult to evaluate for slam purposes.

You might also want to look at Marty Bergen's suggestions for finding minor suit slams after a NT opener or rebid; they have relevance here.
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#18 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-May-01, 01:22

View Postrmnka447, on 2017-April-29, 09:26, said:

+1 for the rebids over FSF.

With FSF, the idea is to make a descriptive bid to help find the right strain for the contract. With all the examples, responder should have a very good picture of opener's hand and can move to place the contract or explore further.


LOL this is a pet peeve of mine. Give her an actual +1.
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#19 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-May-01, 13:19

View PostVampyr, on 2017-May-01, 01:22, said:

LOL this is a pet peeve of mine. Give her an actual +1.

I'm not sure I agreed with everything Felicity said, but the rebids were spot on. Otherwise, it would have been a simple "+1 for FelicityR".
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#20 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-May-01, 13:45

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2017-April-29, 12:55, said:

One reason peoble play FSF as GF is, that those peoble believe to be simpler,
which is not true, but they still believe it.
You need less discussion, when a seq. becomes GF, but you still need to discuss,
what auctions show add. strength, this will beautomatically disussed, if you play
FSF as inv.+

With kind regards
Marlowe

Indeed, when I play K-S (basically 5 card majors, 2/1 with weak NTs), the problem hands over minor suit openings are the 8-10 hands. So FSF is used as one round force to help sort out those hands without getting too high.

The important thing is to thoroughly discuss the meaning of various auctions whichever way you play FSF. One of the big advantages of FSF is to provide a means to distinguish between invitational and game forcing hands in certain auctions. For example,

1 - 1
1 - 2

is usually a sign off, but

1 - 1
1 - 3

can be either invitational or GF but not both. If you add

1 - 1
1 - 2 (FSF)
2 - 3

you have a 3rd auction showing and can now differentiate between sign offs, invitational, and game forcing hands depending on how you use FSF. The key is to be on the same page with partner on what each bidding sequence means.
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