[rg14]

1 heart - 1 spade - 2 notrump
1 heart - 2 clubs - 2 notrump
What is the difference in the notrump range for the above sequences ?

[FelicityR]

Playing SAYC as you BBO profile suggests, 1♥ - 1♠ - 2NT promises 18-19 points in a balanced hand; and 1♥ - 2♣ - 2NT promises just 12-14 points in a balanced hand too.

[ahydra]

Playing weak NT, the first is 18-19 and the second is 15-19 (GF).

Playing strong NT, the first is 18-19, the second is 12-14. If playing 2/1 GF, the second could also be split range (12-14 or 18-19) depending on agreements.

ahydra

[P_Marlowe]

#1 common is, that this showes a bal. hand, that was to strong to open 1NT, but to weak to open 2NT,
jumps usually show add. strength
this holds true, if the opening was a minor, since you opened hearts, presumably showing a 5 carder,
this gets a bit murky, but for simplicity, I would sugest to treat the NT jump similar
#2 now the NT bid is not a jump, hence it does not show add. strength
it showes a bal. hand, that was unable to open NT (either to weak or to strong), playing a strong
15-17 NT, it would show a weak 12-14NT, again given the opening, things may get more complicate

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Zelandakh]

FelicityR, on 2017-April-22, 03:05, said:

Playing SAYC as you BBO profile suggests, 1♥ - 1♠ - 2NT promises 18-19 points in a balanced hand; and 1♥ - 2♣ - 2NT promises just 12-14 points in a balanced hand too.

Are you sure about this? A 2♣ response in SAYC promises a rebid. If you hold a 3244 11 count, what is your planned rebid over 2NT? How about a 3145 hand?

The truth is that SAYC is somewhat nebulous about the correct structure here. One of our resident posters here who has looked into SAYC a fair bit has written that the best way of squaring the circle to what the booklet says is for a weak NT to rebid 2♥ and for the 2NT rebid to show a hand too strong for a 1NT opening. That may be a minority position but it is certainly a very playable option.

In other words, whilst it is clear what a 2NT rebid means in the first auction, the second is system-dependent, not only due to the NT opening range but also from the rebid structure being employed.

[Stephen Tu]

Zelandakh, on 2017-April-27, 06:16, said:

The truth is that SAYC is somewhat nebulous about the correct structure here.

The SAYC pamphlet is fairly clear, 2nt shows a minimum, no extras, yet is still forcing, because responder promised a rebid. (These can be taken from statements in different sections, clearly they didn't think of the ramifications of this). Yes this is illogical, and leads to understrength 3nt, it's what you get when you have a system designed by a committee who clearly went by a "let's throw together somewhat popular treatments to make a common system", and not worry too much about whether the resulting system is any good or makes sense, rather than "let's design a simple, coherent, effective system, make sure everything we pick actually works together".

It's clearly better if playing 2nt as forcing for the 2nt bid to show extra values, and to bid 2M with minimums so responder can bid a NF 2nt which can be passed. In French Std, 2nt shows the 15-17 hand. But it's not what the SAYC pamphlet says.

Then in real life 90% of the players haven't read the pamphlet, and do anything they want here, like pass 2nt, so you really have no idea what to expect. My recommendation to get reasonable results playing pickup SAYC would to open all 5cM 15-17 bal with 1nt, and rebid 2M after 1M-2x with 12-14, thus avoiding the sequence entirely.

Which is why no really good players play SAYC as written, they mostly switch to 2/1, and if not they will work out with their partner a reasonably coherent treatment for ranges on this auction, playing a patched up SAYC.

[Vampyr]

Stephen Tu, on 2017-April-27, 10:29, said:

It's clearly better if playing 2nt as forcing for the 2nt bid to show extra values, and to bid 2M with minimums so responder can bid a NF 2nt which can be passed. In French Std, 2nt shows the 15-17 hand. But it's not what the SAYC pamphlet says.

I am surprised. I was under the impression that in French Standard one opens a 15-17 NT.

Quote

Which is why no really good players play SAYC as written, they mostly switch to 2/1, and if not they will work out with their partner a reasonably coherent treatment for ranges on this auction, playing a patched up SAYC.

I would be surprised if anyone actually played SAYC as their original system. And in fact there are those outside NA who claim to play it, but don't play that 2/1 promises another bid. But of course this is not on the Yellow Card, so I think such people are mainly confusing SAYC with Standard American.

If I played the latter I would use a weak NT, which would help in this kind of situation.

[Zelandakh]

Vampyr, on 2017-April-27, 16:59, said:

I am surprised. I was under the impression that in French Standard one opens a 15-17 NT.

It does but hands with a 5 card major are excluded from opening 1NT so have to be handled elsewhere in the structure. This is the reason for the NT ladders being different for 5m332 hands than for 5M332.

[Vampyr]

Zelandakh, on 2017-April-28, 06:28, said:

It does but hands with a 5 card major are excluded from opening 1NT so have to be handled elsewhere in the structure. This is the reason for the NT ladders being different for 5m332 hands than for 5M332.

Those wacky French!

[Vampyr]

Please delete

[Vampyr]

Zelandakh, on 2017-April-27, 06:16, said:

The truth is that SAYC is somewhat nebulous about the correct structure here. One of our resident posters here who has looked into SAYC a fair bit has written that the best way of squaring the circle to what the booklet says is for a weak NT to rebid 2♥ and for the 2NT rebid to show a hand too strong for a 1NT opening. That may be a minority position but it is certainly a very playable option.

Or... just cancel the "promises another bid" stuff when 1NT is rebid. Because with your suggested structure, responder still has to bid over the 2♥ bid, right? Better to be able to stop off in 1NT, it seems to me.

[Zelandakh]

Vampyr, on 2017-April-28, 23:18, said:

Or... just cancel the "promises another bid" stuff when 1NT is rebid. Because with your suggested structure, responder still has to bid over the 2♥ bid, right? Better to be able to stop off in 1NT, it seems to me.

It is difficult to stop in 1NT after 2♣ has been bid. Perhaps lamford has a story of it happening in his North London club...

[Vampyr]

Zelandakh, on 2017-May-02, 02:23, said:

It is difficult to stop in 1NT after 2♣ has been bid. Perhaps lamford has a story of it happening in his North London club...

LOL quite. I meant 2NT. Better yet to open 1NT weak and be there already...

The North London club has a session tonight. We will see if any hijinks ensue.

[Zelandakh]

Vampyr, on 2017-May-02, 02:36, said:

LOL quite. I meant 2NT. Better yet to open 1NT weak and be there already...

The North London club has a session tonight. We will see if any hijinks ensue.

Will you be playing with or against the member that acts like the Secretary Bird? It is always interesting to hear about the sessions.

After 1♥ - 2♣; 2♥ as a bucket, it is naturally still possible to stop in 2NT. Responder obviously has to cater to that hand in their choice of rebid meaning that 2NT now itself becomes something of a bucket. This is essentially one of the ways of bailing out without sufficient values for game, sometimes referred to as hand brake sequences (Notbremse).

You probably know already that I am normally a weak NT player so I can only agree with you on your second sentence. That said, you will know yourself that there are enough issues not to suggest it as a fix-all remedy for a natural 5 card major system.

[Vampyr]

Zelandakh, on 2017-May-02, 03:08, said:

Will you be playing with or against the member that acts like the Secretary Bird? It is always interesting to hear about the sessions.

Well, it's hard to say exactly who that is, but on the basis of it takes one to know one, I'd have to say with!