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Jam Tarts Laws 45E, 63A1 and 12A1

#1 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2017-April-20, 04:29


IMP Pairs. Table Result 6H-1. Lead Q

The above board occurred at a North London Club this week, and the Hog, who was not at this table, had generously brought in lots of jam tarts and cream eggs he had left over from Easter. The Rabbit, West, was just finishing one particularly sticky treacle tart when the auction came to an end. Walter the Walrus put down dummy and commented: "26 points partner, and you bid at the 2-level. Maybe I should be looking for grand."

SB had a plan, and won the lead in dummy, cashed a top trump and continued with another one. He correctly specified "ace of hearts" and "king of hearts", of course, rather than risk being ruled against for an incomplete designation. On the first of these RR contributed the jack of hearts but on the second he discarded the two of clubs! Timothy the Toucan, his partner, recalled that RR had opened 1NT and was particularly quick to ask "No hearts, partner?". The rabbit checked through his cards, some of which were sticking together a little because of the adhesive effects of the second treacle tart he had eaten, but the Rabbit said "No, sowwy, not got any", with his mouth full. SB shrugged, although he was surprised that the Rabbit had opened 1NT with a singleton and only 10 or 11 points, and he continued with another heart to East's putative queen. When East showed out, discarding a diamond, it was clear that something was amiss and the TD, OO, was called.

"RR is deliberately attempting to conceal a revoke," started SB, "he was asked whether he had any more hearts by the Toucan and he said he didn't". "The revoke is established now as well, as his partner has played to the next trick." RR was taken aback. "I don't have any more hearts", he said. "How many cards do you have?" asked Oscar the Owl, the TD. "Nine", replied the Rabbit. "Well, everyone else has ten, excluding this trick". "And I think I can see the problem. There are two cards clearly stuck together on your second trick, to which you played both the queen and jack of hearts." The rabbit went bright red. "Oh dear", he said. "I remember now having QJ doubleton when I opened 1NT".

"OK", said the Owl. "This one is not too complicated. The Q is restored to RR's hand and is now a major penalty card. The revoke was established when East discarded a diamond to trick four. Play continues and one trick is transferred at the end to North-South. If equity needs to be restored then I will do so at the end of the hand." "Is it not two tricks?" asked RR, "most of my revokes are." "No, just one here, the offender did not win the revoke trick. The additional penalty when he wins a trick with a card that he could have played to the revoke trick was abolished some years ago" replied OO.

RR won the fourth trick perforce with the queen of hearts, the MPC, and exited with a diamond. SB tried the queen of clubs from dummy, but RR ducked, stating that he had not deserved to win his queen of hearts and SB needed to get two tricks for his stupid revoke and one was unfair. However the contract could no longer be made.

SB called OO back. "I think the Laws did not indemnify me for the particular type of infraction committed by RR. If he had not played two cards to one trick, he would not have felt guilty and surely would have won his king of clubs and the contract would have made. Also if RR had not attempted to conceal the revoke by lying when asked if he had any hearts, the revoke would not have been established, and the two of clubs would have become an MPC and I would have made the contract by playing a club to my jack. He could have been aware that denying that he ever had a second heart would damage the non-offenders."

"Well, it should be blindingly obvious to duck the Q, even to RR", replied OO. "And I don't think failing to correct the revoke was an infraction, as RR was not aware that he had revoked. Let me consult".

How do you rule?
'When I write a Law,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less.'
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#2 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2017-April-20, 08:18

"attempted to conceal the revoke by lying" is an accusation of cheating with no basis, and HH knows it. So I toss his objection out the window, and issue him a DP. Aside from that, the original ruling stands.
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#3 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-April-20, 08:53

And before you bring it up, I again don't think that the "could have known it would advantage his side" clause applies to this. It would take extreme expert level analysis to figure out at trick 2 that the way to avoid the end-play is to play both hearts to the trick.

#4 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2017-April-20, 09:03

 barmar, on 2017-April-20, 08:53, said:

And before you bring it up, I again don't think that the "could have known it would advantage his side" clause applies to this. It would take extreme expert level analysis to figure out at trick 2 that the way to avoid the end-play is to play both hearts to the trick.

I think SB's main claim is that RR deliberately concealed the revoke, not that he knowingly played two cards to the same trick which did not benefit him. RR could have been aware that he started with two hearts (by looking at his hand). He could have been aware that only one round of trumps had been played (by paying attention), and he now had no hearts, yet he just answered the Toucan with "sorry no hearts". He could also have been aware that if he owned up to starting with two hearts, the revoke would not have been established and the two of clubs would become a major penalty card. He could have been aware that SB would now have a deadly entry to his own hand if he had the jack of clubs (because of the MPC). All of these were well within the scope of even a rabbit to work out.
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#5 User is offline   sanst 

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Posted 2017-April-20, 09:51

Well, SB is his usual self again, accusing RR of cheating and at the same time telling that he is clairvoyant. How else would RR know that SB has the jack of clubs? Another PP, not that it will make a difference.
But RR deserves a PP as well. You shouldn't eat and play your cards at the same time, lett alone treacle tart. Talking with a mouth full of that treat is certainly a disgusting behaviour and therefore a serious breach of law 74. Glueing the cards together is another breach of proper procedure. So he deserves a serious PP as well.
SB's beloved "could have know" argument is quite nonsensical in this case. How could RR, who only half remembered that he started with two hearts, have the brains to figure out this endplay? Rabits are notoriously stupid and RR is no exception.
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#6 User is offline   sanst 

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Posted 2017-April-20, 09:55

This is proof of the fact that clubs should have a rule prohibiting sticky or greasy foods at or near the tables. You can eat these at the bar, but should wash your hands, and probably your face too, afterwards. :)
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#7 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2017-April-20, 10:12

 sanst, on 2017-April-20, 09:51, said:

Well, SB is his usual self again, accusing RR of cheating and at the same time telling that he is clairvoyant. How else would RR know that SB has the jack of clubs? Another PP, not that it will make a difference.
But RR deserves a PP as well. You shouldn't eat and play your cards at the same time, lett alone treacle tart. Talking with a mouth full of that treat is certainly a disgusting behaviour and therefore a serious breach of law 74. Glueing the cards together is another breach of proper procedure. So he deserves a serious PP as well.
SB's beloved "could have know" argument is quite nonsensical in this case. How could RR, who only half remembered that he started with two hearts, have the brains to figure out this endplay? Rabits are notoriously stupid and RR is no exception.

All RR had to work out was that he did better to allow the revoke to become established. He could have been aware that the queen of hearts had either been played as a fifth card to a trick or had fallen on the floor and yet he claimed not to have a second heart, when he started with two. And there was no endplay. It was just an entry-creating MPC that he avoided.

I am sure if SB had been West and RR South, you would all be rushing to penalise SB with an adjustment.
'When I write a Law,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less.'
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#8 User is offline   axman 

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Posted 2017-April-20, 11:25

 lamford, on 2017-April-20, 04:29, said:


IMP Pairs. Table Result 6H-1. Lead Q

The above board occurred at a North London Club this week, and the Hog, who was not at this table, had generously brought in lots of jam tarts and cream eggs he had left over from Easter. The Rabbit, West, was just finishing one particularly sticky treacle tart when the auction came to an end here. Walter the Walrus put down dummy and commented: "26 points partner, and you bid at the 2-level. Maybe I should be looking for grand."

SB had a plan, and won the lead in dummy, cashed a top trump and continued with another one. He correctly specified "ace of hearts" and "king of hearts", of course, rather than risk being ruled against for an incomplete designation. On the first of these RR contributed the jack of hearts but on the second he discarded the two of clubs! Timothy the Toucan, his partner, recalled that RR had opened 1NT and was particularly quick to ask "No hearts, partner?". The rabbit checked through his cards, some of which were sticking together a little because of the adhesive effects of the second treacle tart he had eaten, but the Rabbit said "No, sowwy, not got any", with his mouth full. SB shrugged, although he was surprised that the Rabbit had opened 1NT with a singleton and only 10 or 11 points, and he continued with another heart to East's putative queen. When East showed out, discarding a diamond, it was clear that something was amiss and the TD, OO, was called.

"RR is deliberately attempting to conceal a revoke," started SB, "he was asked whether he had any more hearts by the Toucan and he said he didn't". "The revoke is established now as well, as his partner has played to the next trick." RR was taken aback. "I don't have any more hearts", he said. "How many cards do you have?" asked Oscar the Owl, the TD. "Nine", replied the Rabbit. "Well, everyone else has ten, excluding this trick". "And I think I can see the problem. There are two cards clearly stuck together on your second trick, to which you played both the queen and jack of hearts." The rabbit went bright red. "Oh dear", he said. "I remember now having QJ doubleton when I opened 1NT".

"OK", said the Owl. "This one is not too complicated. The Q is restored to RR's hand and is now a major penalty card. The revoke was established when East discarded a diamond to trick four. Play continues and one trick is transferred at the end to North-South. If equity needs to be restored then I will do so at the end of the hand." "Is it not two tricks?" asked RR, "most of my revokes are." "No, just one here, the offender did not win the revoke trick. The additional penalty when he wins a trick with a card that he could have played to the revoke trick was abolished some years ago" replied OO.

RR won the fourth trick perforce with the queen of hearts, the MPC, and exited with a diamond. SB tried the queen of clubs from dummy, but RR ducked, stating that he had not deserved to win his queen of hearts and SB needed to get two tricks for his stupid revoke and one was unfair. However the contract could no longer be made.

SB called OO back. "I think the Laws did not indemnify me for the particular type of infraction committed by RR. If he had not played two cards to one trick, he would not have felt guilty and surely would have won his king of clubs and the contract would have made. Also if RR had not attempted to conceal the revoke by lying when asked if he had any hearts, the revoke would not have been established, and the two of clubs would have become an MPC and I would have made the contract by playing a club to my jack. He could have been aware that denying that he ever had a second heart would damage the non-offenders."

"Well, it should be blindingly obvious to duck the Q, even to RR", replied OO. "And I don't think failing to correct the revoke was an infraction, as RR was not aware that he had revoked. Let me consult".

How do you rule?



Had the revoke been corrected (L62A) as required, the position would have had W with C2 PC. Then a small club to the J will hold, spade hook, top spade and spade ruff to hand, permits a club hook, top club, and spade ruff for 13 tricks.
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#9 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2017-April-20, 11:53

View Postaxman, on 2017-April-20, 11:25, said:

Had the revoke been corrected (L62A) as required, the position would have had W with C2 PC. Then a small club to the J will hold, spade hook, top spade and spade ruff to hand, permits a club hook, top club, and spade ruff for 13 tricks.

Unfortunately, the revoke was only discovered once the Toucan discarded on the third heart, establishing the revoke. Then, the following applies:

63B. Revoke May Not Be Corrected
Once a revoke is established, it may no longer be corrected (except as provided in Law 62D for a revoke on the twelfth trick), and the trick on which the revoke occurred stands as played.

Of course Oscar the Owl can restore equity, but the revoke itself did not gain any tricks at all, it was the establishment of the revoke (whether accidentally or intentionally) that gained two tricks. It is not clear from the Laws whether keeping quiet about a revoke in order to establish it is legal, or what the equity is that has to be restored.
'When I write a Law,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less.'
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#10 User is offline   weejonnie 

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Posted 2017-April-21, 03:47

View Postsanst, on 2017-April-20, 09:55, said:

This is proof of the fact that clubs should have a rule prohibiting sticky or greasy foods at or near the tables. You can eat these at the bar, but should wash your hands, and probably your face too, afterwards. :)

Or maybe even stick the food between a couple of slices of bread. Now that's a novel idea.
The hardest director decisions inevitably are caused by the first failure to call at the appropriate time.
"Funny hand: both sides can make 4 hearts - VM"
After 85 years of bridge, the laws will finally define when dummy ceases to be dummy - at the end of play.
After a claim, play is now suspended, not ended. So dummy remains dummy, after a law 69 or during a law 70 ruling.
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Posted 2017-April-21, 03:51

View Postlamford, on 2017-April-20, 11:53, said:

Unfortunately, the revoke was only discovered once the Toucan discarded on the third heart, establishing the revoke. Then, the following applies:

63B. Revoke May Not Be Corrected
Once a revoke is established, it may no longer be corrected (except as provided in Law 62D for a revoke on the twelfth trick), and the trick on which the revoke occurred stands as played.

Of course Oscar the Owl can restore equity, but the revoke itself did not gain any tricks at all, it was the establishment of the revoke (whether accidentally or intentionally) that gained two tricks. It is not clear from the Laws whether keeping quiet about a revoke in order to establish it is legal, or what the equity is that has to be restored.


Obite - in fact if someone becomes aware they have revoked they need not correct it under the new rules - only if attention is drawn to it before it is established.
The hardest director decisions inevitably are caused by the first failure to call at the appropriate time.
"Funny hand: both sides can make 4 hearts - VM"
After 85 years of bridge, the laws will finally define when dummy ceases to be dummy - at the end of play.
After a claim, play is now suspended, not ended. So dummy remains dummy, after a law 69 or during a law 70 ruling.
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#12 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2017-April-21, 04:27

View Postweejonnie, on 2017-April-21, 03:51, said:

Obite - in fact if someone becomes aware they have revoked they need not correct it under the new rules - only if attention is drawn to it before it is established.

I wonder if the TD should decide that someone could have been aware they had revoked, and restore equity according to the better result (from the point of view of the non-offenders) between the defender drawing attention to it and not drawing attention to it. It does not seem right that a good player is allowed to work out whether it is better to have an established revoke or a major penalty card. Mind you, good players rarely revoke in my experience.
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#13 User is offline   weejonnie 

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Posted 2017-April-21, 08:32

View Postlamford, on 2017-April-21, 04:27, said:

I wonder if the TD should decide that someone could have been aware they had revoked, and restore equity according to the better result (from the point of view of the non-offenders) between the defender drawing attention to it and not drawing attention to it. It does not seem right that a good player is allowed to work out whether it is better to have an established revoke or a major penalty card. Mind you, good players rarely revoke in my experience.

I suppose that if the player was a good - but cold calculating - one then 72C can be used. However the 'time of the irregularity' is the time that the player failed to follow suit, not the time that he became aware of it (at least not under the new rules), and the next 'time of the irregularity' is when he fails to correct the revoke when attention is drawn to it (assuming this is done before it is established).

Incidentally: does partner saying "Having none?" draw attention to the revoke? One can certainly argue that it doesn't.
The hardest director decisions inevitably are caused by the first failure to call at the appropriate time.
"Funny hand: both sides can make 4 hearts - VM"
After 85 years of bridge, the laws will finally define when dummy ceases to be dummy - at the end of play.
After a claim, play is now suspended, not ended. So dummy remains dummy, after a law 69 or during a law 70 ruling.
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#14 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2017-April-21, 08:36

View Postweejonnie, on 2017-April-21, 08:32, said:

Incidentally: does partner saying "Having none?" draw attention to the revoke? One can certainly argue that it doesn't.

I don't think it does. And under the new laws, the player can reply to the question, "Having no hearts" with "Give me a moment while I decide whether the MPC is worse or better than the established revoke." I think this makes the game more skilful, but others might disagree.
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#15 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2017-April-21, 08:37

Not, I think, under laws which say both that a player who has revoked is only required to correct his revoke if attention is drawn to it and that a player is not required to draw attention to his own side's irregularity (new law 9A5).
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#16 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-April-21, 08:53

View Postweejonnie, on 2017-April-21, 08:32, said:

Incidentally: does partner saying "Having none?" draw attention to the revoke? One can certainly argue that it doesn't.


That would be a strange argument, but the legality of lamford's reply above is interesting. If there is still not a law that states that you have to follow suit, then the TD cannot make the player do this.

This case is loosely based on an incident that actually happened. A player revoked, and corrected it, and the MPC was worth about three tricks when established revoked have cost one. The player asked me about it afterwards, because he felt hard done by, and I agreed that it was unfair, since he could instead have allowed the revoke to become established. I started a topic about it on this forum and was told that it was too rare an occurrence to worry about, but I don't see why the laws should have flaws that only make a difference once in awhile.
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#17 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-April-21, 09:38

View Postweejonnie, on 2017-April-21, 08:32, said:

Incidentally: does partner saying "Having none?" draw attention to the revoke? One can certainly argue that it doesn't.

I think it draws attention to it to the revoker when he notices the card in his hand while responding to the question. And then when he admits having the card it draws attention to it to the other players.

But in the OP, RR looks in his hand and doesn't see a heart, so it still doesn't draw his attention to it. If it jogs his memory of his original hand, or causes him to notice that he has too few cards in his hand, it might draw his attention to the fact that something has gone wrong. But RR was obviously oblivious to these details -- he didn't remember his original holding until the TD was investigating what happened.

#18 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2017-April-21, 11:26

View PostVampyr, on 2017-April-21, 08:53, said:

... it was too rare an occurrence to worry about, but I don't see why the laws should have flaws that only make a difference once in awhile.

Indeed, every time someone revokes they should, under the new laws, make a quick decision whether to admit to it or not, before it is established. So, every non-established revoke (about twice a week at this North London Club, one of which is usually RR) gives the defender an interesting defensive problem. Much of the time, the MPC will cost more than one trick. Perhaps there should be an Encyclopedia of Non-Established Revokes just like the Encyclopedia of Card Combinations.
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#19 User is offline   axman 

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Posted 2017-April-21, 13:15

View Postlamford, on 2017-April-20, 11:53, said:

Unfortunately, the revoke was only discovered once the Toucan discarded on the third heart, establishing the revoke. Then, the following applies:

63B. Revoke May Not Be Corrected
Once a revoke is established, it may no longer be corrected (except as provided in Law 62D for a revoke on the twelfth trick), and the trick on which the revoke occurred stands as played.

Of course Oscar the Owl can restore equity, but the revoke itself did not gain any tricks at all, it was the establishment of the revoke (whether accidentally or intentionally) that gained two tricks. It is not clear from the Laws whether keeping quiet about a revoke in order to establish it is legal, or what the equity is that has to be restored.


The failure to contribute a heart (re L67) when holding <sic> a heart was a revoke and attention was drawn to the occurence, where L62A requires correction. That, for whatever reason, the player did not acknowledge the revoke still has consequence laid out in L62A.
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#20 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2017-April-21, 14:09

The question "having none, partner" or similar does not call attention to an irregularity. It calls attention to the possibility of an irregularity. If partner says he has none, still attention has not been called to an irregularity. Only if partner says "sorry, I do have one" or similar is attention called to an irregularity.
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