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Bidding on misfitting hands

#1 User is offline   drewolson 

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Posted 2017-April-16, 20:31

South deals


Partner and I picked up these hands at a club game this weekend. I was sitting W. We had a bad bidding miscommunication, but even after the game looking at the diagrams, I'm unsure how these hands should have been bid. How would you bid them?
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#2 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2017-April-16, 22:54

The basic rule with misfits is to stop bidding as soon as possible but if you reached 3NT with the East/West cards you'll likely to be in the same contract as other players I feel.

Without knowing the bidding, if West decides to open (rule of 19 maybe) with his shapely but ultimately poor hand, East will be thinking slam slam slam. Stopping him will be extremely difficult.

It's awkward to decide upon the exact bidding on the hands as it's likely North/South will intervene in too.

If it is at all possible can you provide the auction on the above deal and then the forum members can comment on the bids made? That may be more productive in the long run, and then we can gently suggest alternatives.
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#3 User is offline   silvr bull 

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Posted 2017-April-17, 02:12

Assuming S opens 2H, W can que 3H as Michaels (showing at least 5 S and a 5 card minor and approximately this level of strength at a minimum). E bids 3NT, and W completes his minimum picture with a take out to 4C. The misfit should push E to stop in 4S, which makes easily if N does not lead a trump.

When asking about a bid, I try to show only one hand with the previous bidding before the question mark. Seeing more than one hand can influence the bidding choices, as it might have in my suggestion above.
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#4 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-April-17, 02:48

View Postsilvr bull, on 2017-April-17, 02:12, said:

Assuming S opens 2H, W can que 3H as Michaels (showing at least 5 S and a 5 card minor and approximately this level of strength at a minimum). E bids 3NT, and W completes his minimum picture with a take out to 4C. The misfit should push E to stop in 4S, which makes easily if N does not lead a trump.

When asking about a bid, I try to show only one hand with the previous bidding before the question mark. Seeing more than one hand can influence the bidding choices, as it might have in my suggestion above.


4 should make anyway with both blacks 3-3 due to the info leak from the 2 bid even on a trump lead, unless S gets his hand on the stiff K 5 also makes.

I disagree that this is minimum for michaels, also many people would play 4 as clubs and spades (with 3 as both minors) and require a lot more than this.
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#5 User is offline   drewolson 

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Posted 2017-April-17, 05:11

Thanks for the comments so far. For the sake of discussion, assume it is passed around to E (it was on our hand, I didn't want to open as W). Without intervention, what would be your "ideal" sequence?
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#6 User is offline   mr1303 

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Posted 2017-April-17, 07:00

(2H) P P 3D
P 3S P 3NT

Looks likely. Been in worse.
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#7 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2017-April-17, 10:53

View PostFelicityR, on 2017-April-16, 22:54, said:

The basic rule with misfits is to stop bidding as soon as possible but if you reached 3NT with the East/West cards you'll likely to be in the same contract as other players I feel.


This all too true but a common faux pas as notrump is most often the WORST landing spot on any misfit.

If there was a 2 bid over 2 (hardly clearcut) my partnership would land in 4 but after the actual auction it's tough cause neither east nor west know the extent of the misfit.

West doesn't know if the club suit doesn't come home in 3nt and East doesn't know the diamonds don't come home before they bid it. West would likely admit that 3nt is not a thing of beauty but 4 would be inspired and 4 would (should) end the auction.
The race may not go to the swift nor the battle to the strong. But that's the way to bet it.
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#8 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2017-April-17, 11:49

View Postggwhiz, on 2017-April-17, 10:53, said:

This all too true but a common faux pas as notrump is most often the WORST landing spot on any misfit.


I agree with you entirely on that point, but playing in a 5-2 major suit fit at one level higher could be just as bad. As you say you just don't know what the best contract is not knowing the extent of the misfit between the two hands. It's one of those hands where you try to obtain a plus score, but if you obtain a minus score you try to keep at the very minimum.
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#9 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-April-18, 10:46

Yes. East should be first to bid. From an Losing Trick perspective, he has exactly 4 losers in his hand.

As such he has a royal hand and must sound the trumpets. roll out the carpet, and open up 2 to put his partner on official notice that he has a potential barn burner that warrants an game ending contract.

West has 10 points and a well defined club suit....his spade suit is not strong enough for a mention yet since it is not headed by KJXX. West must respond 3and east bids 3nt final.
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#10 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-April-18, 10:57

View PostRedSpawn, on 2017-April-18, 10:46, said:

Yes. East should be first to bid. From an Losing Trick perspective, he has exactly 4 losers in his hand.

As such he has a royal hand and must sound the trumpets. roll out the carpet, and open up 2 to put his partner on official notice that he has a potential barn burner that warrants an game ending contract.

West has 10 points and a well defined club suit....his spade suit is not strong enough for a mention yet since it is not headed by KJXX. West must respond 3and east bids 3nt final.


Err, no, none of this.

This is nowhere close to a 2 opener.

If you open it 2 and rebid 3N, you will find partner had xx, Qx, KJ, Axxxxxx and play 3N with 7 or 6N rigid.

If partner passes 3N on his hand, he'll find you had AKJ, Axxx, Axxx, KJ plus enough cards to make it a minimum 2 opener and 7N will roll.
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#11 User is offline   jogs 

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Posted 2017-April-18, 11:56

View PostFelicityR, on 2017-April-16, 22:54, said:

Without knowing the bidding, if West decides to open (rule of 19 maybe) with his shapely but ultimately poor hand, East will be thinking slam slam slam. Stopping him will be extremely difficult.


Reserve light openings to major suits.
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#12 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2017-April-18, 18:01

View PostRedSpawn, on 2017-April-18, 10:46, said:

Yes. East should be first to bid. From an Losing Trick perspective, he has exactly 4 losers in his hand.

As such he has a royal hand and must sound the trumpets. roll out the carpet, and open up 2 to put his partner on official notice that he has a potential barn burner that warrants an game ending contract.

West has 10 points and a well defined club suit....his spade suit is not strong enough for a mention yet since it is not headed by KJXX. West must respond 3and east bids 3nt final.


Yikes... Was this post time warped from April 1?
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#13 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-April-18, 18:16

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-April-18, 10:57, said:

Err, no, none of this.

This is nowhere close to a 2 opener.

If you open it 2 and rebid 3N, you will find partner had xx, Qx, KJ, Axxxxxx and play 3N with 7 or 6N rigid.

If partner passes 3N on his hand, he'll find you had AKJ, Axxx, Axxx, KJ plus enough cards to make it a minimum 2 opener and 7N will roll.


Just because you don't open hands with at most 4 losers as 2 is your prerogative. I know a game holding hand when I see one. I recognize the uniform. If I have no more than 4 losers in my hand....2 it is.

However, let's do the arithmetic:

The hand has 18 points raw + 3 length points for 7 card diamond suit + 1 quality point for diamond suit having 3 of 5 honors ... 18+3+1=22 HCP adjusted...looks like a 2 open once you conduct a full hand evaluation and move beyond raw HCP.

So let's keep in mind I have used LTC and a full hand evaluation to justify my opening bid.

Also, west should slow his roll as he has two worthless singletons and should refrain from demanding a slam unless his misshapen hand issues can be adequately resolved.
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#14 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-April-18, 18:17

View Postjohnu, on 2017-April-18, 18:01, said:

Yikes... Was this post time warped from April 1?


Nope...2 club open....has no more than 4 losers per LTC! or do you see 5 or 6 losers per LTC. Hello? See explanation in the post above for a full hand evaluation that justifies the 2 club opening. I came up with an adjusted HCP count of 22.
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#15 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-April-18, 19:13

.
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#16 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2017-April-18, 22:14

View PostRedSpawn, on 2017-April-18, 18:16, said:

Just because you don't open hands with at most 4 losers as 2 is your prerogative. I know a game holding hand when I see one. I recognize the uniform. If I have no more than 4 losers in my hand....2 it is.

However, let's do the arithmetic:

The hand has 18 points raw + 3 length points for 7 card diamond suit + 1 quality point for diamond suit having 3 of 5 honors ... 18+3+1=22 HCP adjusted...looks like a 2 open once you conduct a full hand evaluation and move beyond raw HCP.

So let's keep in mind I have used LTC and a full hand evaluation to justify my opening bid.

Also, west should slow his roll as he has two worthless singletons and should refrain from demanding a slam unless his misshapen hand issues can be adequately resolved.


One thing I learnt years ago is that you don't add in distribution points until you have a fit for partner. It's nowhere near a 2 opener for me too. Just my personal opinion and evaluation.
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#17 User is offline   Nabooba 

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Posted 2017-April-18, 22:24

Firstly this is not a 2C opening in Standard or SAYC . A 2C opening is a game force with one exception, 2C 2D 2NT. Your partnership might agree to open 2C on this but then your 2C opening should not be a game force.
Tell me Mr Spawn, how you are going to make game opposite?
xxxx
xxxx
xx
xxx
You can even add a queen or two to to the Majors if you wish. Should you not play 2C as a gf, then you are not playing standard.

Secondly the vulnerability is not given. Should Sth open 2H as a perfectly normal nv weak 2 bid, life is far more difficult. East has 2 options, maybe an offshape 3NT bid or else a double. After the double it is likely that East - West will get too high on this misfit.

If South passes and E-W play 2 suited openings, E-W will get to 4S or 3NT. If West passes, an easy 4S should be reached and there are many different ways to get to that contract.
Where are you parrot?
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#18 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-April-19, 03:54

View PostFelicityR, on 2017-April-18, 22:14, said:

One thing I learnt years ago is that you don't add in distribution points until you have a fit for partner. It's nowhere near a 2 opener for me too. Just my personal opinion and evaluation.


One thing I learned is that I don't count singleton or doubletons distribution when I do my initial hand evaluation count but initial length points and suit quality points are more than fair game for evaluating a hand's trick taking potential.

AQTXXXX is NOT the same 7 card suited hand as:

AQTXXX, or
AQTXX, or
AQTX

All of these different suits have different "trick taking potential" values and to suggest Milton's raw hcp of 6 points captures all four the exact same way... . .errrrm, no.

We must add length points when we do our initial hand evaluation. I'm not backing down on this one since I was called an April fool's affair by a different user.

As stated, the adjusted value of my hand with length points and suit quality points is 22 hcp and the LTC is no more than 4 losers so 2 it is.

Also, K&R statistics also shows 22 points. Click link below.

The Misfit Hand

So let's see:

  • The LTC is equal to 4 losers = 2 ===> okay per BridgeGuy.com Losing Trick Evaluation Section
  • We have a full hand evaluation that shows 18+3+1=22 hcp = 2 open
  • We have K&R showing 22.15 points (click "TheMisFitHand" link please).


That is 3 sources that confirm a 2 open is valid. Would you like 4 sources?
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#19 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-April-19, 04:04

View PostRedSpawn, on 2017-April-19, 03:54, said:

One thing I learned is that I don't count singleton or doubletons distribution when I do my initial hand evaluation count but initial length points and suit quality points are more than fair game for evaluating a hand's trick taking potential.

AQTXXXX is NOT the same 7 card suited hand as:

AQTXXX, or
AQTXX, or
AQTX

All of these different suits have different "trick taking potential" values and to suggest Milton's raw hcp of 6 points captures all four the exact same way... . .errrrm, no.

We must add length points when we do our initial hand evaluation. I'm not backing down on this one since I was called an April fool's affair by a different user.

As stated, the adjusted value of my hand with length points and suit quality points is 22 hcp and the LTC is no more than 4 losers so 2 it is.

Also, K&R statistics also shows 22 points. Click link below.

The Misfit Hand

So let's see:

We have LTC is equal to 4 losers = 2 ===> okay per BridgeGuy.com
Losing Trick Evaluation Section

We have hand evaluation that shows 18+3+1=22 hcp = 2 open
We have K&R showing 22.15 points

That is 3 sources that confirm a 2 open is valid. Would you like 4 sources?


a) 22 with every possible addition is NOT a 2 opener.
b) nobody who is any good calculates like this as you've been told by everybody in this thread, yes if you have a strong 2 available (or benji bid) you can use that, but if you open 2 on this you will have horrible issues when partner plays you for a real hand on a misfit, or if preemption happens, how are you going to enjoy a 2-(3)-4 start for example.
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#20 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-April-19, 05:27

You have tried every way to run around this hand which is the functional equivalent of a 22 HCP hand. I have showed you three different ways to justify the 2 open and none of them, including the K&R calculator, is over the top.

You haven't argued against the hand having at most 4 losers per LTC. I showed you some partnerships play 8.5+ tricks as 2 open, so the whole "this hand is nowhere near 2 clubs"... That would be true if you downgrade 7 card suits containing 3 of 5 honors.

This hand is the functional equivalent of a 22 HCP hand and it has at most 4 losers per LTC. Its intrinsic value is hidden in the honors-rich 7 card suit that folks are dismissing in their initial hand evaluation.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I stand by my 2 open because I know the masses have very entrenched beliefs about the type of uniform a 2 hand must wear. But I don't ascribe to those notions when the arithmetic says 22 HCP adjusted and the LTC analysis says a trick short of game.

Also, if I open 2, West should bid a new suit ONLY IF it is headed by KJXXX or better. Well, in my book, Q10xxx is not better than KJXXX so he should not bid 3 over my 2. The spade suit quality doesn't justify consuming more than a whole level of bidding space from the auction. West needs to mention the suit he holds that meets these parameters.

AQ10xxx is his 6 card suit that meets the KJXXX or better requirement. He should bid 3 clubs to let me know he has 10 or more adjusted points and a well defined club suit containing 2 of the top 3 honors.

Finally, if the opposition wants to preempt on a board where we run upwards of 30-32 points, let them. We welcome all altar-sacrificing bids but we can't guarantee that our opponents will be spared from a bloodbath.
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