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Defensive Tricks In Pre-emptive Hands

#1 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2017-April-09, 06:16

When I learnt bridge many years ago I was told "Never pre-empt with a 4 card side suit major." But rules change and I have noticed that pre-emptive bids have become weaker and weaker in recent years but where do advanced/expert players now draw the line? Obviously vulnerability and position come into the equation too, but I'd be interested on your views and comments on the three following hands, assuming all non-vulnerable and dealer. Would you open, pre-empt or pass on the following hands? The main pre-emptive suit I have kept the same in all three, and I have made the suit semi-weak without the top three honours as they were pre-requisites for any pre-empt in yesteryear.







Thank you for your replies in advance.
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#2 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2017-April-09, 08:33

imo 1 and 2 are clearcut (pass, 1H) the 3rd is kinda ugly, i'd probably open it 3h but I don't like it.
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#3 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2017-April-09, 10:28

I wouldn't open any of them.
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#4 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2017-April-09, 10:38

You didn't specify scoring or opps' vulnerability. On hand 2 I'm always opening 1. For the others:

IMPs, favourable
1) 4
3) 3 (with some discomfort - my regular Ps will know my 3 could be much weaker than this)

IMPs, love all
1) 3
3) 3 (with less discomfort)

MPs, favourable
1) 3
3) 3, again with less discomfort) - though I might bid 2 if we needed tops

MPs. love all
Ditto favourable.
The "4 is a transfer to 4" award goes to Jinksy - PhilKing
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#5 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-April-09, 11:34

1) Pass

2) 1 followed by 2 followed by 3 . after bidding 3 times. partner ought to get the picture.

3) 2 -- Not ideal without high , but certainly descriptive 9-11, 1 1/2 QTs. If partner forces with 2 NT, I'll reply 3 (good hand, bad suit for Ogust, no feature for feature ask because of bad suit).
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#6 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2017-April-09, 13:30

I'd pass on all three but there are a number of players around here who would open the second one 1H with the two aces.

ahydra
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#7 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2017-April-09, 14:29

Playing a standard system where 1-of-a-suit openings meet the rule of 20:

1),3): 3
2): 1(!)
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#8 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2017-April-09, 15:05

I would not preempt any of them but #2 I can open 1.
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#9 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2017-April-09, 15:46

I have no strong feelings on 3 in fact i'm leaning towards pass having heard everyones opinions. But 2 just looks like a routine opening bid to me 2 aces 6 card suit singleton i must be missing something.
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#10 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-April-09, 18:58

View PostFelicityR, on 2017-April-09, 06:16, said:

When I learnt bridge many years ago I was told "Never pre-empt with a 4 card side suit major." But rules change and I have noticed that pre-emptive bids have become weaker and weaker in recent years but where do advanced/expert players now draw the line? Obviously vulnerability and position come into the equation too, but I'd be interested on your views and comments on the three following hands, assuming all non-vulnerable and dealer. Would you open, pre-empt or pass on the following hands? The main pre-emptive suit I have kept the same in all three, and I have made the suit semi-weak without the top three honours as they were pre-requisites for any pre-empt in yesteryear. Thank you for your replies in advance.

I upvoted Phil by mistake but, at the table, I'd open then all :)
NV as dealer, I rank
1. 3 = PRE. I'm told that Zia says it's OK to have surprises for opponents (and partner) when you pre-empt.
2. Pass = NAT

NV as dealer, I rank
1. 1 = NAT. 2 Aces and a seven card suit.
2. 3 = PRE.
3. Pass = NAT

NV as dealer, I rank
1. 3 = PRE Reese said "A pre-empt that is known to be weak is a blunt sword."
2. 1 = NAT
3. Pass = NAT.

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#11 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-April-09, 21:47

View Postrmnka447, on 2017-April-09, 11:34, said:

3) 2 -- Not ideal without high , but certainly descriptive 9-11, 1 1/2 QTs. If partner forces with 2 NT, I'll reply 3 (good hand, bad suit for Ogust, no feature for feature ask because of bad suit).


Is it so descriptive? I think that without keeping preempts disciplined, partner will never know what to do. Although perhaps you have different standards with your constructve range, playing it as a light 1 opener rather than a weak hand. I am not familiar with this style because I prefer a weak 2 to a multi.

In third, of course, all bets are off.
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#12 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2017-April-09, 22:20

As others have said, scoring and vulnerability matter, as does partnership style. However, my inclination is:

1) 3H
2) 1H
3) Pass

The only one I feel strongly about is that #2 is not a 3H bid.
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#13 User is offline   silvr bull 

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Posted 2017-April-09, 23:39

All three are easy pass for me. Unless partner has two of the top H honors, opening 1H in #2 would always be a disappointment, and partner will likely overbid with most hands. My approach is to limit my hand as soon as I can, and pass is my first opportunity to do that. There is little chance the hand will be passed out, and then I can bid strongly later without misleading partner about my hand strength. If #2 is passed out, then a score of zero may well be better than the game partner would strain to bid.

Preempting to 3H on #1 makes it very difficult to find our 5-4 S fit, and I agree with the guide to not preempt in 1st or 2nd with a side 4 card major. If the black or pointed suits are reversed, then I would open 3H with #1. Opening 3H on #3 could push partner to take a phantom save against an opp game that my surprise defense could be enough to beat.
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#14 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-April-10, 00:17

View Postsilvr bull, on 2017-April-09, 23:39, said:

All three are easy pass for me. Unless partner has two of the top H honors, opening 1H in #2 would always be a disappointment, and partner will likely overbid with most hands. My approach is to limit my hand as soon as I can, and pass is my first opportunity to do that. There is little chance the hand will be passed out, and then I can bid strongly later without misleading partner about my hand strength. If #2 is passed out, then a score of zero may well be better than the game partner would strain to bid.

Preempting to 3H on #1 makes it very difficult to find our 5-4 S fit, and I agree with the guide to not preempt in 1st or 2nd with a side 4 card major. If the black or pointed suits are reversed, then I would open 3H with #1. Opening 3H on #3 could push partner to take a phantom save against an opp game that my surprise defense could be enough to beat.


I co-sign Silver bull's analysis. Opening weak 3 on #1 is just putting your partner between a rock in a hard place.

And IMHO, #1 is just so messy from the poor suit quality and the side suit and the non-working honor singletons that any benefit you gain from being the 1st to open is offset by the highly defective nature of this hand and the bidding space you have potentially robbed from your partner. PASS is the most descriptive bid for #1 -- nothing noteworthy to report.

#2 I would pass. Though a complete hand evaluation places this hand at 12 total points and I may open 1 , I really like this hand's defensive values. I want to hear more about what my opposition and partner have to say about their hands. If partner opens his hand, then I upgrade mine and compete aggressively. If the opposition open theirs, I might have just the right resources to upset any game contract bids they pursue.

#3 A conundrum. It is a preadolescent hand, not a full blown 1 adult opener and is too strong defensively to be classified as weak 3 . I say Pass but I can see someone making the case for a 2 bid.

I see now that the PASS button is becoming an obsolete auction item. If we get a highly defective, ill-fitting hand from the dealer that doesn't conform to our normal bidding schema, just force fit it somewhere with an opening bid and let partner and the opposition sort out its intended meaning. The PASS button used to be reserved expressly for at least some of these conditions ....no more it seems.
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#15 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-April-10, 00:17

.
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#16 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-April-10, 00:59

I am surprised that so few people are concerned about purity. I consider it the most important attribute when considering whether to make a preemptive bid.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#17 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-April-10, 01:05

PASS on all three.A few players may like to open the second one as 1H,since.they will argue" 2 Guaranteed defense tricks and easy rebid " !
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#18 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2017-April-10, 01:44

I wouldn't pre-empt on any of these hands.In each case,the heart suit is too moth eaten...
It should be remembered that when you bid a suit,you are not only proposing it as trumps;
you are also suggesting it as a lead if your side become defenders. On each of these hands,do you
REALLY want a heart lead (?)
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Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)


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#19 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2017-April-10, 02:44

1 is a clear pass. Why make a dodgy preempt when you hold the other major. Change your heart suit to one of the minors and I would consider opening three, especially third position, but not as it stands.

I wouldn't criticise a 1H opening on 2, but I'd probably pass, although again a preempt comes into consideration in 3rd.

I'd definitely open 3H on 3.
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#20 User is offline   fourdad 

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Posted 2017-April-10, 03:51

from the variety of responses, you can see that the answer to your question is that there is no right answer other than what agreement you have with your partner.

As no one has mentioned position, all three are a 3H bid in 3rd seat.
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