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Challenge Event 8 - Open Discussion bridgebase.com/forums/topic/76476-event-8a-registration/page__st__20

#1 User is offline   ovncylmz 

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Posted 2017-April-04, 15:44

Hello all,

I think Event 7B is a real success (still waiting for final match) and 7A worked alright. Our biggest problem for 7A was that somehow the posts got into BBO News and we got so many people who registered without even knowing what a challenge is. Given the community gets bigger and we are only amateur organizers, we will make some changes again:

Event 8 will be a single-tournament. The format will be similar to Event 7B (RR then KO). However, we will open it up to all players with the following way:
>> People who are top in the MP list will automatically join the Round-Robin stage.
>> People who are not qualified directly (either low in the MP list or first timers) will have to play a Qualifying Knockout (one or two rounds based on your MPs). We think that this will also help us to take action against people who register but don't play before they mess up the sensitive RR format.

* The games will be 14 to 16 boards with MP & non-best hand.
* Players are expected to play 5 to 7 matches per week.
* Players have to follow the post daily.

We are also thinking of a side Swiss (actually Danish, so repeat games are possible), people who want to play in a slower pace or people who get knocked out in the Qualifying stage. This event will be IMP, non-best hand and will be 2 matches per week.

We will open the registration for main event soon. Let me know if you have any feedback or thoughts.

Best,
Ovunc

Note: We need one more organizer who can spend some time and help us regularly. Please write me here or via BBO.
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#2 User is offline   ovncylmz 

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Posted 2017-April-04, 16:56

Please comment below.
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#3 User is offline   frank0 

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Posted 2017-April-04, 17:19

OK I'll put my thought here.

# of players for KO stage

2 to the integer power, this one is obvious.

# of players for RR stage

If we have 8n or 4n entrants, the RR set up will be extremely easy. Just make it 8 or 4 group of n players, each group advance 2^m (<n) players into KO stage.

For example,
44 players=>4 group of 11, 8 players advance from each group and we have 32 players to play KO
56 players=>8 group of 7, 4 players advance from each group and we have 32 players to play KO
36 players=>4 group of 9, 8 players advance from each group and we have 32 players to play KO

Qualifying Knockout

Therefore # of people we need to cut down in Q round is no more than 7. Suppose we need to cut down p (<=7) people, we can let the bottom 4p or 8p seeded players play p sets of "reverse KO" (i.e. losing player move to next round, only the player lose every game is KO)

For examples
59 players=> need to eliminate 3 players => bottom 24 seeds play 3 sets of "8 adv. 7 reverse KO"

2^t advance 2^t-1 reverse KO

t rounds of KO will be played, if you win any match, you advance to RR stage, if you lose/decide to not play/no response then you play the next day (if not the last day). Each match should be very short I recommend 64/2^t boards per round and must be completed within 24*max(1,4-t) hours.

Example
61 players enter

Top 21 seeds get byes to RR. The other 40 players play 5 sets of "8 adv. 7 reverse KO"
Day 1: If you don't have bye, you play a 8 boards match with an opponent. 20 winners Q, other 20 players play Day2.
Day 2: Similar to Day 1, 10 winners Q, 10 players play Day3.
Day 3: Similar to Day 1&2, 5 winners Q, 5 players who lose all matches are eliminated (56 left).
Day 4: We can start RR with 56 people, we'll form 8 group of 7, 4 players advance from each group and therefore we have 32 players left to play KO
1 week from Day 4: we can start KO. The organization of the remaining tournament should be straight forward.

Inactive Players

In KO stage, any inactive player is eliminated from the tournament.

In reverse KO stage, inactive player is consider losing (and therefore play the next day), if both are inactive, the lower seeded player is consider losing.

In RR stage
complete vs. non-complete: The person who fail to complete the match gets 0VP, the other person gets +3IMP for each non-complete board (and converted to VP as usual).
non-complete vs. non-complete: 0VP: 0VP
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#4 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2017-April-04, 19:44

IMPs or MPs?
Winner - BBO Challenge bracket #6 - February, 2017.
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#5 User is offline   m1cha 

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Posted 2017-April-04, 22:05

Hi, Frank. I'm trying to be the bad guy.

View Postfrank0, on 2017-April-04, 17:19, said:

Therefore # of people we need to cut down in Q round is no more than 7.

In the current 7A, 8 people dropped out. 5 of them didn't respond at all, 2 of them played just 1 challenge. If the target of the Q stage is to make sure that its survivors will reliably play in the RR, it may be necessary to reject a higher number of players even if you could accomodate, say, all but three.

View Postfrank0, on 2017-April-04, 17:19, said:

t rounds of KO will be played, if you win any match, you advance to RR stage, if you lose/decide to not play/no response then you play the next day (if not the last day).

For the same reason as above, I suggest that players cannot proceed to the RR unless they complete at least 2 challenges; and if someone misses just one challenge, they cannot proceed.

View Postfrank0, on 2017-April-04, 17:19, said:

Each match should be very short I recommend 64/2^t boards per round and must be completed within 24*max(1,4-t) hours.

This, on the other side, is very tough and almost cannot work within 24 h unless the challenges are auto-accepted.
For example, the players are announced at 0:00 h, player 1 finds the announcement and issues challenge at 10:00 h. At 18:00 player 2 may find the challenge, accept and play it but player 1 went to bed. At 24:00 the organizers will have no idea what is going on but they need the result immediately for announcing the next round.

View Postfrank0, on 2017-April-04, 17:19, said:

In reverse KO stage, inactive player is consider losing (and therefore play the next day), if both are inactive, the lower seeded player is consider losing.

I believe if both are inactive, both should be out. That's the target, isn't it?

I'm afraid this will complicate things a lot. But how about the following: Let's say you have 33 people in the Q stage, you want 4n winners. Everyone has 3 opponents announced at 0:00 h. All challenges should be issued and accepted before 24:00. Results must be reported by 72:00. If a challenge is pending at, say, 60:00 h, a player may report to the forum that he played it and the responsibility for playing and reporting the result is now with the opponent. If 7 players fail to complete a challenge, we have 26 successful players of which 24 may be winners and 2 unfortunate losers. This will include some 'winners' who lost all 3 challenges, but why not?

Oh, one more thing: We may have players who don't want to play the fast event but who may want to play the 'side swiss', if there is one. Some of them might decide to do so only after playing the Q stage ...
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#6 User is offline   ovncylmz 

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Posted 2017-April-05, 08:01

View PostPhil, on 2017-April-04, 19:44, said:

IMPs or MPs?


MP for the main event.
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#7 User is offline   ovncylmz 

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Posted 2017-April-05, 08:19

m1cha, valid points. For people who don't want to read all the technical/motivational discussion below, here is the short way: We go with the RR+KO with a qualification stage for some of the entrants. This will make it an open tournament (some people care about this a lot, so sure), but also keep us safe (we have a chance to make sure that new entrants are aware of the tournament, the post, and sometimes even what a challenge is etc.).

Now, I understand franks's suggested approaches. However, before making a decision on the system, I always ask the following question: What are we trying to optimize? We are not an official body or something like World Challenge Bridge Organization. We are members of a forum and we want to have fun. Therefore, the best system for me is the one which maximizes the fun while being as fair as possible.

Frank forgets about this and goes to fairness part - he also ignores all these frictions. In a KO, we have so many logistic issues:
>> KO does not let you have a buffer zone, a small problem delays everything at some point.
>> If it goes like 4, 5 or 6 rounds and if you have to play 4 sets in 5 days, you basically need to have BBO as the main part of your life. You have to play during a weekend getaway, because you have to. Youu cannot just send 4 challenges to same person and get done in one day. You have to wait for him to complete, you have to follow the posts etc.
>> Let's say you lost in the first round, you need to wait for others to finish the whole thing.

What are the advantage of RR?
>> Buffer - for example, you can keep up with only playing in the weekend.
>> You play vs. a lot of cool people. Especially if the group is big, it is really cool.
>> You play all the time before the short playoffs.

Note that it took 30 people 13 days to complete a full Round Robin (with 2 groups, so 14 matches). It was near perfect. Imagine that we have something like a 16 x 2 groups again, with most coming from the regular entrants. If somebody wants to join, they must show that they can play a challenge and they can play in a good pace:) I don't want to deal with inactive players - there is no good way of doing this. So, the best strategy is to have players who you are sure that will be active.

Anyway, I somehow convinced Frank that we just list the entrants and then find a cut-off in the MP list, decide on direct qualifiers and then arrange the qualifying stage for others. We will open the registration page soon.

Cheers,
Ovunc
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#8 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2017-April-05, 08:23

View Postm1cha, on 2017-April-04, 22:05, said:

almost cannot work within 24 h unless the challenges are auto-accepted

Agree. Auto-accepting challenges makes everything smoother and less frustrating. But doesn't that now happen automatically as long as you are marked as friends?
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
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#9 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-April-05, 08:56

5-7 matches/week seems like a lot for some of the people who've been playing in previous events. You think enough players will be able to keep up?

#10 User is offline   ovncylmz 

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Posted 2017-April-05, 10:04

View Postbarmar, on 2017-April-05, 08:56, said:

5-7 matches/week seems like a lot for some of the people who've been playing in previous events. You think enough players will be able to keep up?


Then they play the side event. We had like 30 people who played 14 matches in 13 days last time - enough players will be there.
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#11 User is offline   m1cha 

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Posted 2017-April-05, 11:14

View Postgordontd, on 2017-April-05, 08:23, said:

Agree. Auto-accepting challenges makes everything smoother and less frustrating. But doesn't that now happen automatically as long as you are marked as friends?

Yes but that does not help in a tournament with one challenge per opponent if you don't know in advance who you will play against; well unless you make all your possible opponents your friends which would make the friends lists kind of absurd. Or well, maybe it does help if you can select someone as a friend and then send a challenge which will be auto-accepted even if they did not select you as a friend. But that's not how I would like auto-accepting to work because you have no control at all on which of your incoming challenges are auto-accepted.
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#12 User is offline   spyrosm 

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Posted 2017-April-05, 16:42

Some ideas from a newcomer :)

1. I can help you as organizer, if you like. Actually I also can help with the Swiss event. I may use the official program of Hellenic Bridge Federation(I am official TD of HBF) in order to calculate the next rounds and keep it as normal Swiss

2. For the Swiss event we may choose a delayed Swiss format. The first two rounds will be random. Third round will be based on Round one results only. Fourth Round will be based on Rounds 1&2, fifth will be based on Rounds 1,3 & 3 and so on. Last round only will be Danish

3. I do not agree with Qualifying Knockout for the main event. It is possible someone who can play 5-7 challenges per week to be eliminated in favor for a newcomer who will drop in RR realizing that cannot follow the fast pace. It is better to have two separate events. Side event (like 7A) will be open to anyone when Main event (like 7B) will be open to anyone has at least one participation on a past Side event. (So you will be sure that he knows how challenges work and player is able to play a lot of challenges per week)

4. We may create a free web site to host past results and MPs. It is easy to create a blog or a free wordpress site for that purpose. I can do that if you like. I just need to send me in my email the files with the past results.
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#13 User is offline   ovncylmz 

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Posted 2017-April-05, 17:44

View Postspyrosm, on 2017-April-05, 16:42, said:

1. I can help you as organizer, if you like. Actually I also can help with the Swiss event. I may use the official program of Hellenic Bridge Federation(I am official TD of HBF) in order to calculate the next rounds and keep it as normal Swiss

4. We may create a free web site to host past results and MPs. It is easy to create a blog or a free wordpress site for that purpose. I can do that if you like. I just need to send me in my email the files with the past results.


Thanks for the offer, I am happy to hear. So just shoot me your email address from BBO - I will contact you.

View Postspyrosm, on 2017-April-05, 16:42, said:

2. For the Swiss event we may choose a delayed Swiss format. The first two rounds will be random. Third round will be based on Round one results only. Fourth Round will be based on Rounds 1&2, fifth will be based on Rounds 1,3 & 3 and so on. Last round only will be Danish


This sounds a good idea, with this we can always announce next two games. We can go with this given we have the software.

View Postspyrosm, on 2017-April-05, 16:42, said:

3. I do not agree with Qualifying Knockout for the main event. It is possible someone who can play 5-7 challenges per week to be eliminated in favor for a newcomer who will drop in RR realizing that cannot follow the fast pace. It is better to have two separate events. Side event (like 7A) will be open to anyone when Main event (like 7B) will be open to anyone has at least one participation on a past Side event. (So you will be sure that he knows how challenges work and player is able to play a lot of challenges per week)


Some people really want the big event to be open to anyone in the forum. Last time we put two points that everybody who registered has to comply with by writing it down while registering. And we accommodate our regular participants. We do a similar thing, but if the number is so high, then we may need a KO stage for qualifying - note that our regular participants will play a maximum of one qualifying round vs. a newcomer may play multiple.

For newcomers, I don't think one participation is enough to clear the bar to make it to the main event automatically. That is why those people have to try the Swiss if they cannot pass the qualifying stage. Then they can collect MP there and maybe get directly in next times.
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#14 User is offline   heart76 

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Posted 2017-April-06, 00:51

My 2 cents...

To Ovunc's reply about delayed swiss - I hope I got what you meant correctly BTW :)
In the delayed swiss you play the first 2 rounds with any (even random) movement. Then the positions are updated after every round, but according to the results as they were 2 rounds before.
Like this:
Round 1. Round 2.
Move according to R1 results.
R3.
Move according to R2 results.
Etc.
Although I have never tried it, it should be possible to play 2 rounds in a row generating the positions according to the results of each odd round, but only if the SW will generate 2 rounds with different matches out of the same result standings. Like:
R1. R2.
Move according to R1 results.
R3. R4.
Move according to R3 results.
Etc.
I think this requires that rounds 4, 6, 8, ... are manually generated right after 3, 5, 7,... and that you're not playing danish. But as said, I have never tried.
Anyway, the delayed concept will let you announce the next round while you're still playing the current, so you get very little advantage in generating and announcing 2 rounds together.

One question regarding the last round.
If you have e.g. 16 players and they're playing 9 rounds, why do you want the last one to be danish? You should have enough new matches available.

Rgrds
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#15 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2017-April-06, 07:26

UMM I have NO CLUE what we are talking about (apparently I live with my head in the sand).
Is this some sort of individual with robots?
As a first timer (obviously), what requirements must be met and how would I join.
Do I need a partner or a team?
My apologies in advance for being so clueless ty
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#16 User is offline   scarletv 

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Posted 2017-April-06, 08:03

You will not need a partner or a team. When you call challenges an individual with robots it is. For me it is more like doing some team matches where your partner and your opponents are GIBs. For each match you compare who did better you or the one who challenged you. You better have played a challenge before you register to any of the competitions and make sure you like it and know how it works.

What the exact movement and scoring will be is not decided yet. There will be restrictions to register at least for one of the events in planning.

Last time we had a kind of Swiss/Danish competition called 7A.
http://www.bridgebas...mation-results/

The second was a round robin followed by a knock out called 7B.
http://www.bridgebas...ilver-brackets/
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#17 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-April-06, 10:57

View Postgszes, on 2017-April-06, 07:26, said:

UMM I have NO CLUE what we are talking about (apparently I live with my head in the sand).
Is this some sort of individual with robots?
As a first timer (obviously), what requirements must be met and how would I join.
Do I need a partner or a team?
My apologies in advance for being so clueless ty

See http://www.bridgebas...challenges.html for information about BBO Challenges.

#18 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-April-06, 11:00

View Postm1cha, on 2017-April-05, 11:14, said:

Yes but that does not help in a tournament with one challenge per opponent if you don't know in advance who you will play against; well unless you make all your possible opponents your friends which would make the friends lists kind of absurd. Or well, maybe it does help if you can select someone as a friend and then send a challenge which will be auto-accepted even if they did not select you as a friend. But that's not how I would like auto-accepting to work because you have no control at all on which of your incoming challenges are auto-accepted.

That's not how auto-accepting works. It only auto-accepts when you follow each other.

#19 User is offline   ovncylmz 

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Posted 2017-April-06, 13:53

View Postbarmar, on 2017-April-06, 11:00, said:

That's not how auto-accepting works. It only auto-accepts when you follow each other.


Yes he means "It would be good to have it other way" for the tournament, but then it does not make sense for any of the others.
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#20 User is offline   JJ_ 

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Posted 2017-April-06, 14:07

Personally I prefer "Best- hand" IMP or MP

That way a human dictates the hand instead of 3 "artificial intelligence"
Also it is more fun to be creative in bidding - not so much in declare play when I land in totally wrong contract :)
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