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Which partner should penalty-double?

#1 User is offline   JLilly 

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Posted 2017-March-29, 14:15

Hi BBO,

If the bidding indicates that opponents, who have won the contract, have an 8- or 9-card fit and from looking at your hand (and possibly overcalls from partner), you can tell that trumps break very unfavorably from them, how do you decide whether to give them a penalty double or to leave that for your partner? My intuition says that if a double as takeout is plausible, and your partnership hasn't exhausted the feasible competitive bids for your side, then the doubler should be the partner short in trump, since it can serve as a request for partner to leave in the double if they're long in opps' suit or to take it out if they're long in a feasible (sacrifice or not) other suit.

But what if a double is clearly for penalty, such as (modern American/French/German bidding) 1NT-(P)-2-(P); 2-(P)-4-X?. Do you double or let partner double if you have four or five spades, or zero spades? How relatively important is your being long vs. short, compared to your ability to take defensive tricks? That is, if in general the short partner should double, but if you're long and you hold, say, AK(x...) A(x...), or KQ(x...), against a the 4S contract arrived at above, should you expect that partner won't double with short spades and scant values and so it's up to you to put in the double?

Thanks! JL
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#2 User is offline   spotlight7 

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Posted 2017-March-29, 15:29

1N-2C-2S-4S is made with hands from game to near slam values.


1N-2C-2S-3S-4S limits them to game values without extras.


They can also be in a nine card spade fit if either opener or responder holds 5 spades.


IMPs suggests caution. At MPs a double gives you better odds to reward your score.
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#3 User is offline   JLilly 

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Posted 2017-March-29, 17:18

View Postspotlight7, on 2017-March-29, 15:29, said:

1N-2C-2S-4S is made with hands from game to near slam values.
1N-2C-2S-3S-4S limits them to game values without extras.


Ah, thanks for the reminder of Stayman structure. But even if I got that wrong, the point remains, about which partner, who can see a bad split for the contracting side, should be the one to make the penalty double -- the partner long or the partner short in trumps? Or is this an unhelpful way of thinking?

Quote

IMPs suggests caution. At MPs a double gives you better odds to reward your score.


Ugh, I know! I feel like once the bidding is over, IMPs encourage the auction-winning side to take their contract and be done with it. On BBO I've had opps express annoyance with me as I've figured out how to wangle an overtrick or two. IMPs seem to discretize results into "did you go down?", "did you make game?" and "did you make slam?". I guess with IMPs I should refocus my perfectionism on bidding rather than on playing.
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#4 User is offline   spotlight7 

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Posted 2017-March-29, 19:15

If you have strong trumps, feel free to double.


Some(Zia) top players double with 0-1 trumps after 1N-2C-2M-3M-4M


because they only have game values and a bad trump split will


likely doom the contract.


If you happen to hold 5 trumps or 4 goodish ones, doubling a


contract that responder only invited game is a decent gamble.


I saw Bob Hamman bid 4NT and make it after they bid had bid to 4M and a double appeared.
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#5 User is offline   fourdad 

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Posted 2017-March-30, 04:23

View PostJLilly, on 2017-March-29, 17:18, said:

Ah, thanks for the reminder of Stayman structure. But even if I got that wrong, the point remains, about which partner, who can see a bad split for the contracting side, should be the one to make the penalty double -- the partner long or the partner short in trumps? Or is this an unhelpful way of thinking?



Ugh, I know! I feel like once the bidding is over, IMPs encourage the auction-winning side to take their contract and be done with it. On BBO I've had opps express annoyance with me as I've figured out how to wangle an overtrick or two. IMPs seem to discretize results into "did you go down?", "did you make game?" and "did you make slam?". I guess with IMPs I should refocus my perfectionism on bidding rather than on playing.


or...just stop playing IMPs and let your perfectionism RULE!!!
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#6 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2017-March-30, 04:34

In general I would say that the player with trumps should double. If that gives away the bad break, to declarer's advantage, then it is a bad double. I.e. You should be doubling on something like QJ109, not Qxxx. Doubling on shortage risks partner holding xxxx in trumps, which may not embarrass declarer. Of course if oppo have scraped into a contract you might stretch to double, especially if you can see other suits are breaking badly. This is one area where doubling good players is safer than doubling bad players. Bad players might have underbid such that your imagined riches in partner's hand aren't in fact there.
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#7 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2017-March-30, 05:07

This is a general novice/beginner mistake, doubling an uncontested auction hoping that partner has some values to add to yours and that the contract is doomed. Even doubling when partner has made a single overcall can be treacherous as that overcall may be more lead directional than good values.

The bridge phrase "No double, no trouble" applies both ways. The worse type of penalty double is where a part score is converted into a game contract, and/or overtricks are made by the declarer.

The best advice I can give at this level is to use the penalty double cautiously. It is a double-edged sword.
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#8 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2017-March-30, 05:51

Hi,

if they bid in an uncontested auction to game / slam, how do you know,
that the contract is likely to fail by 1 or 2 tricks?

You need to have those tricks in your hand, i.e. the one who is making
the penalty double, should have the tricks, and in a trump contract, you
need trumps.

There are auction, when both opponents tell, they are stretching, sometimes
the auction will also tell you, that their side suits are breaking badly,
in those cases you can get away with doubling without trump tricks.
But, as was stated above, this requires a certain trust in the opponents, that
they know, what they are doing.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#9 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2017-March-30, 08:19

GOOD QUESTION and naturally not easy to answer. The bidding has to be taken into consideration and the player short in trumps can x IF and ONLY IF they have enough quick tricks they expect to take. W/O these quick tricks it is far better to leave any penalty x to the partner with the long trumps. Example: noint the opps bidding goes as follows 1n 2c 2h 3h 4h. This is a limited auction where slam is usually far off and you hold Axxx void Axxxx Axxx this is the perfect hand type for a penalty x. You know the opps trump suit is breaking badly (though I have seen some ten card trump fits bid this way)
and you expect to take 3 quick tricks hoping for at worst one more trick and/or handling problems for the opps due to bad trump split. If you hold KQxx void KQxx KQxx you can see from your own hand p is likely totally broke so even if they have 5 trumps they will all be little ones. The 1n bidder is behind you and the prospect of taking more than 3 (if that) tricks on defense seems like a tiny target. Pass. There are all kinds of in between situations and it is a matter of partnership stability as to how much gambling with penalty x one does.

A corollary to this thinking is x by the hand with the long (strong) trumps. If the bidding seems to make partners honors well placed then go for the throat otherwise it is usually best to avoid the x unless you are so strong as to virtually ensure setting the contract yourself. Ex: same bidding as above and you hold Axx QJT9 xxx xxxx. If the 1n bidder is to my left this is an easy x (that will sometimes backfire) since partners honors are well placed behind the opening 1n bidder. If the 1n bidder is to your right caution should be exercised since p honors are now all under the gun and while a penalty x might work it can also backfire spectacularly. The 2nd example (where the 1n bidder is to your right) is more of a MP x where it is only 1 board if wrong but can steal a close to top when right.
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#10 User is offline   JLilly 

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Posted 2017-April-11, 04:12

Thanks all for your replies. But in the case that your side has four quick tricks to defeat a 4M contract, but not all four are in the same hand, shouldn't one partner make a gamble, at least conditional on other information? Or analogous math for defeating a 3- or 2-level contract. The flipside to "IMPs encourage making game" is "IMPs encourage defeating game".
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#11 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2017-April-11, 04:48

View PostJLilly, on 2017-April-11, 04:12, said:

Thanks all for your replies. But in the case that your side has four quick tricks to defeat a 4M contract, but not all four are in the same hand, shouldn't one partner make a gamble, at least conditional on other information? Or analogous math for defeating a 3- or 2-level contract. The flipside to "IMPs encourage making game" is "IMPs encourage defeating game".


you can do that when the opps have an invitational auction - they won't redouble, there are unlikely to be overtricks and it might go 2 or 3 off. if you do that when the opps are largely unlimited and turn out to have 31 HCP, you'll find they redouble and score 1080. increasing their score from 620 to 1080 or even just 790 is bad odds when you're only trying to increase your score from 100 to 200 or from 50 to 100.

most importantly when you double you're also giving information away which results in the opps often making 1 trick more than they would. if that changes the result from 4S-2 to 4Sx-1 then you've gained nothing. if it changes the score from 4S-1 to 4SX= it's a catastrophe.
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#12 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2017-April-11, 11:52

View PostJLilly, on 2017-April-11, 04:12, said:

Thanks all for your replies. But in the case that your side has four quick tricks to defeat a 4M contract, but not all four are in the same hand, shouldn't one partner make a gamble, at least conditional on other information? Or analogous math for defeating a 3- or 2-level contract. The flipside to "IMPs encourage making game" is "IMPs encourage defeating game".

Yes, but close doubles are not worth it. You gain only 50 / 100, but risk losing add. 170,
and quite often you turn a -2 into a -1, which means, you gain nothing.
This is due to the fact, besides leaking information to declarer, that if chances are slim, you
may go for the miracle without the double, and go home accepting -1 with the double.
Doubles become lucrative, if you have a reasonable chance of setting a contract -2.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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