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Hopeless 3NT Missing Three Aces and Long Suit

#1 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2017-March-18, 03:00



I was kibitzing a friend's game (Pick-Up, IMPs, Main Room) and on correct defence 3NT seems a hopeless contract on a club lead.

First, do you agree that 3NT is the correct contract for East/West? Secondly, if 3NT is not the right place with East and West's mediocre hands, how do you avoid it?
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#2 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2017-March-18, 08:10

Seems like a natural disaster.

Although opening the west hand is sketchy in 2nd chair I would be in always at mp's and almost always at imps.

West MAY have bid 2 instead of 3, overstating their spades instead of their playing strength and that would lead to a different disaster.
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#3 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-March-18, 10:49

No, 3 NT is not the right contract for East/West.

I would not open the West hand. It has 1 1/2 QTs and a stiff Q which is of dubious value at best.

If you do open that hand, then opener's rebid should be 2 . A 3 rebid is termed "a high reverse" because it forces bidding to the 3 level and shows a much better hand. While players like to think that 2 shows 6+, there are hands, like this one, where opener has to bid 2 with 5 to avoid getting too high.

Let's assume West passes, if North passes (instead of possibly bidding 3 ), then East opens 1 . so the auction might proceed --

P - ( P) - 1 - P
1 -(2 )- P - P
2 -( P)- 2 - All P

If East/West are going to push toward game, they need a big fit and distribution with a 12 point opener opposite less than an opener. 1 is a normal response. After a competitive 2 overcall, East with an absolute minimum opener passes. That should alert West that East has a minimum. West shows his and East not specifically knowing what West's distribution is and seeing no fit just makes a temporizing rebid of 2 . (West's hand could be 4 /5 , 5 /4 , or as here 5 /5 . So East can't know if it's right to pass 2 or preference to 2 .) West with no clear cut fit for either suit held and a doubleton passes.
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#4 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-March-18, 11:19

I might open the hand, especially if NV, but I would not bid a game-forcing 3.
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#5 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2017-March-18, 13:41

When you click on the GIB button and see that any lead is still good enough to put them down and its not because finesses are offside or there is terrible break than you know its a poor contract.

IMO its much better to pass with west and hope to make a Michael later than to open with no defense. In MP when opps are vul a fair amount of your good scores will be when you double them, if you open with no minimal defense requirement than you lose a lot of opportunity of getting those magic +200/+500.
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#6 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-March-18, 20:15

If hands like the West one are routinely opened, more invitational sequences are needed to prevent arrival at silly contracts.
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#7 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-March-18, 20:21

The 1S opening is TOO aggressive.Since a fit is not known,questionable defensive tricks,the singleton CQ go against it.The rule of 20 also is not satisfied.The hand may be played finally in 2 H or rarely 2S,and that is all it is worth irrespective of the opponents holdings.LTC can not be applied here as there is no 8+ cards fit in any suit,
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#8 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-March-19, 04:31

View Postmsjennifer, on 2017-March-18, 20:21, said:

The 1S opening is TOO aggressive.Since a fit is not known,questionable defensive tricks,the singleton CQ go against it.The rule of 20 also is not satisfied.The hand may be played finally in 2 H or rarely 2S,and that is all it is worth irrespective of the opponents holdings.LTC can not be applied here as there is no 8+ cards fit in any suit,


It's not a good opener, it to be fair the Rule of 20 is satisfied.
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#9 User is offline   aawk 

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Posted 2017-March-19, 07:05

The question should be is a 5251 pattern with 11 HCP and a singleton Q good enough to open 1.

If yes then bite the bullet that 3nt was set it happens.

If no but you still want to open start using MULTI (2) and MUIDERBERG (2 2) for your weak openings bid.
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#10 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2017-March-19, 08:59

A couple of thoughts.

The Rule of 20: If I am going to open a 5-5 using this rule, I like my ten highs to be in the two suits. The club Q is not quite useless, it does mean that East's club 9 becomes a second stop. But that's not enough.

3NT with one stop: This comes up fairly often. 3NT is being contemplated and the enemy suit is stopped but only once. Often this means that after we take our stopper we had better have eight more tricks ready to roll. Aceless E might give this matter some thought. Usually his club 9 is not a second stop, and it is unlikely that the 2C call was on nothing more than KQJTxx. Could be, but unlikely.

I'll buttress this argument with a hypothetical. hand.



Everyone would open this W hand with 1S. In 3NT we get a club lead and we sooner or later take the A. We then take five spade tricks. And then?

I have arranged the spades to be 4-2 rather than 5-1m but I did not make then 3-3. 4S is no piece of cake but, as I have placed the cards, I think it makes. 3NT is hopeless.
There is no way to get this right all the time, but I think the danger is a common one: We stop their suit once, after which we cannot let them in again in NT.

With the deal I invented maybe
1S 2C 2H P
2S P 3C P
3D P 4S P

Well, maybe. But of course on the actual opening we don't, and with the split we really don't, want to be in 4S either.

Would I open the W hand of the OP? I dunno. Probably not.
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#11 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2017-March-19, 09:21

Shrug. I think it's good bridge to open 1 from W, banking on a fit in at least one of the two suits. When that didn't work, we're stuck, but what can you do. You need some stoicism to have wide-ranging openings/overcalls (it's better than endlessly inviting and re-inviting, catering to the absolute bottom of the range). Next hand we also open 1 and find 2/3/4/etc and our wise counterparts will be defending against 4.
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#12 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2017-March-19, 15:27

View Postkenberg, on 2017-March-19, 08:59, said:

A couple of thoughts.

The Rule of 20: If I am going to open a 5-5 using this rule, I like my ten highs to be in the two suits. The club Q is not quite useless, it does mean that East's club 9 becomes a second stop. But that's not enough.

3NT with one stop: This comes up fairly often. 3NT is being contemplated and the enemy suit is stopped but only once. Often this means that after we take our stopper we had better have eight more tricks ready to roll. Aceless E might give this matter some thought. Usually his club 9 is not a second stop, and it is unlikely that the 2C call was on nothing more than KQJTxx. Could be, but unlikely.

I'll buttress this argument with a hypothetical. hand.



Everyone would open this W hand with 1S. In 3NT we get a club lead and we sooner or later take the A. We then take five spade tricks. And then?

I have arranged the spades to be 4-2 rather than 5-1m but I did not make then 3-3. 4S is no piece of cake but, as I have placed the cards, I think it makes. 3NT is hopeless.
There is no way to get this right all the time, but I think the danger is a common one: We stop their suit once, after which we cannot let them in again in NT.

With the deal I invented maybe
1S 2C 2H P
2S P 3C P
3D P 4S P

Well, maybe. But of course on the actual opening we don't, and with the split we really don't, want to be in 4S either.

Would I open the W hand of the OP? I dunno. Probably not.


I would definitely open the West hand. 4 can make thanks to the fortunate position of the red suit aces. Declarer can make 5 spades,2 hearts 2 diamonds and the A
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#13 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2017-March-20, 02:08

Thank you for all your replies. My thoughts were that with West's not-so-good hand you haven't got a sensible rebid if partner bids 2, irrespective of whether the opponent's overcall 2. The suit is not strong enough to rebid as it stands, but with AKJ107 (as kenberg suggested) the strength compensates for not having a 6 card suit two level rebid.
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#14 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2017-March-20, 02:35

Hi,

#1 do you want to be in 3NT looking at E/W only, the answer is no,
you only have 23HCP
with the original hand, 3D after 2H is an overbid, unless2 H is gf you
have submin. values, if you believed the hand worth an opening bid,
than make the 2S rebid.
#2 exchange the originalhand with Kens hand, you will end up in 3NT as
well and go down, unless you somehow mastermind the auction, sometimes,
you will have a 2nd stopper, and sometimes, you willhave 9 running tricks,
that happens

#3 The takeawayis, try to avoid #1.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#15 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2017-March-20, 06:35

Marlowe above says "unless2 H is gf". I am curious. Imo, after the 2C the standard meaning is that 2H is forcing but not game forcing. I had a hopefully friendly discussion with someone online the other day. He treated the tqo level bid as not forcing. A Negative Free Bid I guess. And some think it is still gf. I claimed that while NFBs no doubt have some merit, else peoplele wouldn't play them, surely playing online pick up with this undiscussed, you should treat it as forcing but not game forcing.

My thinking is that online play first requires a sense of humor and then requires a general sense of what the default meaning of an undiscussed bid is apt to be. 2H as forcing but not game forcing seems right.

Both PhilG and Marlowe are skeptical of my auction on the variant hand I suggest (I take Phil's 4S opening as a joking way of saying what Marlowe is saying, that getting to 4S needs masterminding). Maybe so, but I think worrying about whether you actually can run nine tricks after you use your club stopper has merit, and I have acted on this when I play. Sometimes I am right, sometimes I an wrong. The situation comes up fairly often. On the OP hand, if spades had been 3-3, there might have been a play for 4S. That's "if" and "might". No play for 3NT.

Anyway, I doubt that I open on the actual W hand, so that solves that. On my variant everyone opens. As E I might or might not mastermind it to 4S. As mentioned, i do not always get these right. If everyone got everything right we would have a lot of ties.
Ken
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#16 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2017-March-20, 15:13

View PostFelicityR, on 2017-March-20, 02:08, said:

Thank you for all your replies. My thoughts were that with West's not-so-good hand you haven't got a sensible rebid if partner bids 2, irrespective of whether the opponent's overcall 2. The suit is not strong enough to rebid as it stands, but with AKJ107 (as kenberg suggested) the strength compensates for not having a 6 card suit two level rebid.

Did you remember to count 1 point for the 5th spade and diamond.(?) This raises the West hand to 15 points so an opening bid must be made
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#17 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2017-March-20, 16:14

Assuming you play a 2/1 system, the question is whether or to open 1S with the West hand. If you do, you will reach a very bad 3NT game. If you don't, you'll likely end up in 2S going plus.

That's not to say you shouldn't open 1S as West. Personally, I would pass. You have an aceless hand, two HCP are a stiff Queen, and you're in second seat. All reasons to pass (1S has more of a preemptive effect in first seat than it does in second seat). But I can't criticize a 1S opener; it has its advantages, too.

Of course, this is an easy 1S opener if you play a strong club system, but then partner will make allowance for this sort of opener and not force game with the East hand. In 2/1, East has a GF hand.

No clear-cut answer; you have to decide what style you want to adopt and live with the ups and downs.

Cheers,
Mike
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#18 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2017-March-20, 22:09

If you pass this hand as West, I highly doubt you will play 2. If North doesn't bid 3 (third seat? KJT8xx and an Ace?), and if East doesn't pass it out (not unreasonable; not my choice, but the spades are almost the worst they can be, and the A is bare), surely after p-p-p-1; p-1 North will come in? I'd think 3 is about right on that auction, even if 2 is right on the 1 auction.

Sure, opening shape sometimes gets you to bad contracts. Sometimes they come home, too. Sometimes even the bad contracts are good... This time you lose.
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#19 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-March-21, 06:06

View PostPhilG007, on 2017-March-20, 15:13, said:

Did you remember to count 1 point for the 5th spade and diamond.(?) This raises the West hand to 15 points so an opening bid must be made


You forgot to add a point for the doubleton and Two for the singleton. The hand is actually an 18-count.
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