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Fitting a 14-16 1NT into 2/1

#1 User is offline   perko90 

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Posted 2017-March-12, 23:23

For various reasons, I've been thinking about trying to fit a 14-16 1NT range into 2/1.
FWIW, we liberally include 5332 w/ 5-card major into 1NT and our 2 is just a weak 2.
I live in ACBL land, so the GCC reigns supreme.

To make it fit in, here's 3 possible treatments that come to mind:
1) the 2NT jump rebid = 17-18, 2NT = 19-20, and 2C handles all 21+
2) the 2NT jump rebid = 17-18, use a Mexican style 2 bid for 19-20, 2NT = 21-22, and 2C handles all 23+
3) cheat the range a bit so that 1NT = good 14 to bad 17, a 2NT jump rebid = good 17 - 19, and the rest standard

Any recommendations or creative ideas?
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#2 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2017-March-12, 23:36

play gazilli and swedish t-walsh. then no jump rebids required.
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#3 User is offline   xavierf 

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Posted 2017-March-13, 01:00

Welland Auken play also a 14-16 nt.
They open almost all 11-13 and 17-19 with 1C,
1C - 1D/H (transfer walsh) - 1H/S is 11-13.
1C - 1D/H - 1SA = 17-19.
2C = 20-21 or GF bal. So they can sign off with some hands at two level.
2NT = 22-24
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#4 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2017-March-13, 03:14

I do not think the Mexican 2 would be worthwhile in this case. The main reason playing 2 as a strong NT hand is to remove that hand type from the opening bids at the one level, in your case they're still there (in the form of 17-18). T-Walsh (as suggested by others) is a good idea, but I believe it isn't GCC legal? I have three options which you haven't listed:

1. Jump rebid of 2NT is 17-18, opening bid of 2NT is 21-23, 2 opening is 19-20 NT or any GF (you'd have to GF with 24 balanced). The reason to put the 19-20 NT into 2 is to be able to get out at the two level; a simple scheme is to play 2-2M/3m as non-forcing vs the 19-20 NT, and the 2 response as waiting.

2. Play a split range for the minors. For instance you can play that 1 is 11-13 NT or natural, and 1 is 17-19 NT or natural, or you can play it the other way around.

3. Not sure if this is GCC legal (and its probably not very good), but you could play 1 as 11-13 NT / 17-19 NT / natural, and have some sort of response scheme where you respond 1 with most hands. Now opener's 1 rebid could be 11-13 NT, the 1NT rebid could be 17-19, and others could show various unbalanced hands with clubs.
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#5 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2017-March-13, 03:34

View Postperko90, on 2017-March-12, 23:23, said:

I live in ACBL land, so the GCC reigns supreme.

The GCC doesn't allow T-Walsh, but you're allowed to play e.g.

1(nat. or any 11-13/17-19 bal.)-?:

1 = 4+ S, may have longer H unless GF or unless you play Flannery by Responder
...1 = 3 S or 11-13 bal. w/ 2 S
...1 = 4+ H
...1N = 17-19 bal., 2-3 S
...(...)
1 = 4+ H, less than 4 S unless GF
...1 = 3 H or 11-13 bal. w/ 2 H
...1N = 17-19 bal., 2-3 H
...(...)
1 = ART GF (also played by Welland-Auken)
1N = NAT NF

(1 is basically helene_t's "Spade Walsh". The whole scheme of responses was probably first suggested by awm; the 1 rebid over 1-1 probably by mickyb (or awm.))

So far so good, but unless the 1 and 1 responses promise positive values (which they don't have to in Swedish T-Walsh), you may want to play special continations over 1-1; 1 and 1-1; 1. (E.g. XYZ doesn't work so well when Responder is forced to bid again with subpositive values.)

A couple of good alternatives:

I: Play "Dutch Doubleton", i.e.

1(nat. or any 11-13/17-19 bal.)-?:

1 = nat. or negative
...1+ = Polish Club-style
1M = "7+, 4+ M" (GF opposite 17-19 bal.)
(...)

II:

1(nat. or any 11-13/17-19 bal.)-1M(4+ M, may be very weak); ?:

2 = "delayed Mexican"1: a) "17-19 bal." (incl. 16-18, 2245), 2-3 M b) "16-18", 3M4D5+C2
...E.g.:
...P = subpositive, 4M(4)5+D
...2M = to play
...2OM = puppet to 2N
...+ a way to stop in 3 when Responder is subpositive w/ 4M5+C
2N = "D reverse", but not "16-18", 3M4D5+C2
other: standard

1 at least what I call it
2 in case Responder is very weak with 5+ M
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#6 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-March-13, 23:47

Too many artificial bids create too many complications and furthermore they fit only established partnerships.Better to abandon playing 2/1 and stick to normal SAYC.!
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#7 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2017-March-14, 15:06

View Postperko90, on 2017-March-12, 23:23, said:

For various reasons, I've been thinking about trying to fit a 14-16 1NT range into 2/1.
FWIW, we liberally include 5332 w/ 5-card major into 1NT and our 2 is just a weak 2.
I live in ACBL land, so the GCC reigns supreme.

To make it fit in, here's 3 possible treatments that come to mind:
1) the 2NT jump rebid = 17-18, 2NT = 19-20, and 2C handles all 21+
2) the 2NT jump rebid = 17-18, use a Mexican style 2 bid for 19-20, 2NT = 21-22, and 2C handles all 23+
3) cheat the range a bit so that 1NT = good 14 to bad 17, a 2NT jump rebid = good 17 - 19, and the rest standard

Any recommendations or creative ideas?


14-16 works tremendously well with a strong or multi-purpose 1C opener (Precision variants, Polish club, and the like) and with treatments like transfer Walsh (not generally legal yet in ACBL-land). It doesn't work quite as well in standard, because you end up having to jump to 2NT with a bad 17. That puts responder in a bind with certain 4-5 HCP hands: he doesn't want to hear a 2NT rebid on these hands.

Especially at MPs, I honestly think a better solution is to make 1NT a really good 14 to a moderate 17, and upgrade the good 17 hands (including ALL 17 hands with a five card major) to 18.

If you really want to open most 14s 1NT, then I would prefer your first method above: jump 2NT for 17-18; 2NT opener for 19-20; 2C for 21+. But then you almost HAVE to play Kokish 2H, so that you can distinguish 21-22 (2C then 2NT), 23-24 (2c-Kokish-2NT), 25-26 (2C then 3NT), and 27+ (2C-Kokish-3NT).

Cheers,
Mike
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#8 User is offline   perko90 

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Posted 2017-March-15, 01:09

Thanks all for the replies!
- Indeed, unfortunately, T-Walsh is not GCC legal.
- I find the 1 = spades treatment interesting, but probably not to the liking of my partners.
- I'm leery of just adopting a 17-19 jump rebid because there's no space for an invite. So, you get imprecise auctions and guesswork.
- Thanks for mentioning the 2NT | 2-2NT inversion, Kungsgeten. I "invented" that 15+ yrs ago for the same reasons you mentioned and it worked quite well. But I didn't want to mention that in my post to keep it simple.
- I really like nullve's suggestions of the Dutch Doubleton treatment w/ Polish style responses (works well with unbalanced 1 which I also favor). And the "Delayed Mexican 2" is something I've never heard of, but definitely has my attention. With the extra flexibility of having the 2 level artificial 4SF, it's not too hard to unwind the strong balanced hands from the true - reverses.
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#9 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2017-March-15, 08:52

View Postperko90, on 2017-March-12, 23:23, said:

For various reasons, I've been thinking about trying to fit a 14-16 1NT range into 2/1.
FWIW, we liberally include 5332 w/ 5-card major into 1NT and our 2 is just a weak 2.
I live in ACBL land, so the GCC reigns supreme.

To make it fit in, here's 3 possible treatments that come to mind:
1) the 2NT jump rebid = 17-18, 2NT = 19-20, and 2C handles all 21+
2) the 2NT jump rebid = 17-18, use a Mexican style 2 bid for 19-20, 2NT = 21-22, and 2C handles all 23+
3) cheat the range a bit so that 1NT = good 14 to bad 17, a 2NT jump rebid = good 17 - 19, and the rest standard

Any recommendations or creative ideas?

I would just treat the 14-16 range as 15-17 as per standard SAYC. Its only 1 point of a difference (!)
It's not a sin to play bridge,but it's a crime if you play it badly(!) ;)
"It is not enough to be a good player,you must also play well"
- Dr Tarrasch(1862-1934)German Chess Grandmaster
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#10 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2017-March-18, 05:41

@ Perko
As a "1NT=15/16" player, and very happy with twalsh, my advice here is that if your local regulations forbid twalsh, you should up sticks and move. It's that serious. North of the border and take heated bridge gloves? South of the border before the wall goes up? Maybe there is a break-away region that is about to declare UDI?

FWIW, if you play twalsh all NT bids or rebids above 1NT should never be more that 2 point range, so there is no need of invitations. My NT ladder when balanced is
1 1red completion(1M) = 12-14 and 2 or 3
1 1red 2M = 12-14 and 4
1 1 1NT = 12-14
1NT = 15/16
1 1red 1NT = 17/18 and 2 or 3
1 1red 3M = 17/18 and 4
1 1 2NT = 17/18
1 1red 2NT = 19/20 and 2 or 3
1 1red 3M+1 = 19/20 and 4 (aka non-serious 3NT)
1 1 2 = artificial puppet to 2 then 3 = x4x6+ natural reverse, or 2NT = 19/20
2NT = 21/22
As all 2NT bids are just 2-point range, no invitations are needed, and no hand bids higher than 2NT, so responder can always retransfer or bid 3m to play.
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#11 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2017-March-18, 06:55

View PostfromageGB, on 2017-March-18, 05:41, said:

@ Perko
As a "1NT=15/16" player, and very happy with twalsh, my advice here is that if your local regulations forbid twalsh, you should up sticks and move. It's that serious. North of the border and take heated bridge gloves? South of the border before the wall goes up? Maybe there is a break-away region that is about to declare UDI?

Maybe the ABA allows T-Walsh? (I don't think they award ACBL masterpoints, but....)

View PostfromageGB, on 2017-March-18, 05:41, said:

FWIW, if you play twalsh all NT bids or rebids above 1NT should never be more that 2 point range, so there is no need of invitations. My NT ladder when balanced is
1 1red completion(1M) = 12-14 and 2 or 3
1 1red 2M = 12-14 and 4
1 1 1NT = 12-14
1NT = 15/16
1 1red 1NT = 17/18 and 2 or 3
1 1red 3M = 17/18 and 4
1 1 2NT = 17/18
1 1red 2NT = 19/20 and 2 or 3
1 1red 3M+1 = 19/20 and 4 (aka non-serious 3NT)
1 1 2 = artificial puppet to 2 then 3 = x4x6+ natural reverse, or 2NT = 19/20
2NT = 21/22
As all 2NT bids are just 2-point range, no invitations are needed, and no hand bids higher than 2NT, so responder can always retransfer or bid 3m to play.

Helene has a nice trick,

1-1N = NAT, not enough to invite opposite 12-14 bal. but strong enough to force to game opposite 17-18* bal.,

which allows

1-1; 1N = (12-14 or 17-18*) bal.
1-1; 2N = 19-20 bal.

* ranges adjusted to fit a system with 15-16 NT
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#12 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2017-March-19, 15:13

View Postnullve, on 2017-March-18, 06:55, said:

.. which allows

Yes, that will do it, but it takes away a whole bid, and also possibly wrong-sides the 1 - 1NT. I prefer my approach, as the use of the heart reverse does not cost much and is rare. On the other hand, Helene's 1NT on 17/18 does keep the bidding a level lower, but while a minimum 5+ card minor responder will want to play in 2m over 1NT if opener is 12-14, opposite 17/18 you would want to play in 1NT, so that's a downside possibly. Nothing is perfect, and everything has a cost.
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