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Escape from weak 1NT doubled

#21 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2017-March-13, 06:32

View PostLiversidge, on 2017-March-13, 06:16, said:

Thanks everyone.
Just one further question - what if responder is 4333? The usual guideline is:
If the holding is 4-3-3-3, most partnerships treat the holding as two-suited.
Not sure what that means but I am guessing that if the 4 card suit is a major then you start with your better 3 card minor?

Often I just pass. If my 4-card suit is poor, or I have enough points 1NTx might make on a good day, or I have the feeling that my LHO is going to take the double out anyway.

If I feel that pass is likely to end the auction and it will be a bad result, then I usually bid my 4-card suit unless it is spades in which case I bid 2. But it is possible that bidding the better minor with 3433 or 4333 is better. The quality of the 3-card suit doesn't matter so much technically, but the more strength you have in your suit the less likely you are to get doubled.

With a good 4-card suit and three small trippletons I treat my suit as a 5-card suit.

One reason to escape even if you don't believe it will lead to a better contract it that opps might not double you in a suit contract.
OBAR = OverBidding At Random? --- Vampyr
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#22 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2017-March-13, 07:07

View PostLiversidge, on 2017-March-13, 06:16, said:

Thanks everyone.
Just one further question - what if responder is 4333? The usual guideline is:
If the holding is 4-3-3-3, most partnerships treat the holding as two-suited.
Not sure what that means but I am guessing that if the 4 card suit is a major then you start with your better 3 card minor?

Those are the hands, that make you want to play 1NTx.
The 4333 hand, ... you should start with a 3 card suit below your 4 card suit,
psych if you want.
It may matter if they play T/O or penalty, if you start with a 3 carder, chances
are high, that they dont really have a T/o, which can lead to a situation called
"Waiting or Godot", in this case it may make sense to bid a weak suit, if they
play penalty it may make sense to bid a good suit.
Also going for a major is more secure, than bidding a minor.
It may all be wrong, ..., and it is always good to have some luck ensuring thingy
in your pockets.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: We play pass forces XX, and in those cases we have to sing "anotherone bites
the dust", and we may be the ones.
.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#23 User is offline   plaur 

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Posted 2017-March-13, 07:10

I really like being able to pass and offer to play 1NTx. Lots of opponents double our 12-14 NT with too weak hands and then 1NT (X) pass puts lots of pressure on 4th hand. The following works really well in an environment where opponents double 1 NT freely. If your opponents always has a BIG NT when doubling you may need better...

pass: to play! may be flat weakish or any hand that wants to gamble. Sometimes a big winner, only rarely -500
xx: ask opener to bid 2 clubs, responder will pass or bid his 5 or 6 card suit, to play
2 clubs: SOS! Opener will bid diamonds with 5+, 2 hearts with both majors. Opener may pass 2 clubs, awaiting penalty double
2 diamonds: Both majors. May be weak, invitational or strong
2 major: Invitational. Opener may pass or raise with a fit.

This is a simple and easy to remember method. Only caveat is to remember what 2 Diamonds means! Responder: both majors, Opener: 5+ to play
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#24 User is offline   NickRW 

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Posted 2017-March-13, 08:28

A couple of systems I've played:

Pass = to play
2C = Stayman (Typically garbage stayman of course)
2D = Hearts
2H = Spades
XX = a minor (Opener calls 2C for pass or correct)

You can play 1Nx and it has the added advantage that most calls are the same as if there was no X, i.e. it is easy to remember


The other one was:

XX = to play
2x = to play
Pass = opener to bid 5 card suit if got one, else XX for start of scramble

Also simple. And though XX to play can get a few bottoms, it can also get some tops and is especially interesting at imps where 1Nxx making is worth the game bonus. (But it requires nerves of steel and the ability to declare 1N contracts well)
"Pass is your friend" - my brother in law - who likes to bid a lot.
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#25 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-March-13, 10:38

There are many methods and some have different advantages.

1EYEDJACK's arguments for not playing Exit Transfers are very compelling - particularly against good opponents. Strangely, against weak opponents (who haven't fully discussed their continuations after a penalty double), there is always a chance that your opponents will rescue you and if you go round the houses in your escape you increase the chances that the opponents will lose patients and rescue you! But you should base your system on the players you aspire to beat - and although I used to play Exit Transfers we moved on from them.

When considering different systems, it is worth noting that some systems allow you to play in 1NTX but not in 1NTXX, (because the redouble is used as part of the rescue). Other systems allow you to play in 1NTXX but not 1NTX (because a pass is forcing).
- Systems that don't allow you to play in 1NTX have disadvantages at MP Pairs - sometimes it is better to sit still rather than rescue (e.g. on 4333 shapes as discussed by various contributors). There is no advantage in making a redoubled 1NT at pairs - if you make a doubled 1NT you have probably scored better.
- Systems that allow you to play in 1NTXX can have some advantages at teams - because now if you make you will score a game bonus. The risks/rewards for doubling a tight contract can shift and the opponents may chicken out rather than risk conceding a game bonus. Of course the risks are increased for your side too and you will find that, in practice, you always rescue from 1NTX. There are of course fewer IMPs specialist who play a weak NT because of the risks!
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#26 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-March-13, 10:44

Do not forget that some people can play in 1NTx and 1NTxx.

Weak NT can be very effective at IMPs. In 1st 2nd and 4th anyway.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#27 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2017-March-13, 16:14

View Posteagles123, on 2017-March-13, 06:27, said:

imo any method that doesnt allow you to play 1Nx is truly terrible, other than that it doesn't really matter :)


You can play 1Nxx though
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#28 User is offline   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2017-March-13, 17:20

nekthen said:

1489443270[/url]' post='916929']
You can play 1Nxx though


Years ago, we gave up the XX when twice in two weeks we were -400 on a partial only hand.
Ultra Relay: see Daniel's web page: http://bridgewithdan...stems/Ultra.pdf

C3: Copious Canape - Improved version of Ultra Relay, notes not posted yet.

Scrap heap: Canapé Attack System with Strong and 4-cd Major openings ...

Back to the Future? Using 1 &1 responses to Strong 1 as Positive Exclusion Color Bids.

NOW playing a Mosca (Nightmare-Fantunes like) system with canapé, 11-14 NT with Keri Invites and Bailey 2 bids, & 15+ 1 opener with transfer negatives @ 1-level & transfer positives @ the 2- and 3-levels. Canape after opening 1 or 1 (into a minor suit only). 3/1/17: Adding Nightmare Canape responses to 1 opening.
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#29 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-March-13, 17:39

Janet (Just another notrump escape technique) not as complex as it appears:
When escaping, we try to reach 2 or 2, because it's harder for an opponent to double 2M.

After 1N (X) ??
  • P = NAT. (But if he feels like it, opener can redouble with a 5-card suit. Responder can pass this redouble or bid 2 (Pass/correct).
  • XX = ART. SOS. Two 4+ suits.
  • 2/// = NAT. 5+ suit. (Alternatively a TFR, with a very weak hand: in which case, responder will redouble if an opponent doubles).

After 1N (X) XX (P); ??
  • 2 = ART. denies 5 cards in another suit.
  • 2// = NAT. 5+ cards.

After 1N (X) XX (P); 2 (X) ??
or after 1N (X) XX (P); 2 (P) P (X); P (P) ??
  • P = NAT. 4+ s & 4+ of another suit.
  • XX = ART. 4+ s & 4+ s (REDouble = REDs).
  • 2 = NAT. 4+ s & 4+ s.
  • 2 = NAT. 4+ s & 4+ s.

Exactly the same, after 1N (X) XX (P); 2 (X) P (P); ??
or after 1N (X) XX (P); 2 (P) P (X); ??
  • P = NAT. 3+ s.
  • XX = ART. 4+ s & 4+ s (REDouble = REDs).
  • 2 = NAT. 4+ s & 4+ s.
  • 2 = NAT. 4+ s & 4+ s.

(This works when opener has 2s and no 5-card suit. Because, then he must have two 4-card suits).

I originally wrote that these calls are alertable. Paul G points out that EBU regulations say that most of them do not require an alert.

This post has been edited by nige1: 2017-July-28, 17:07

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#30 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-March-13, 19:03

I also think exit transfer are OK to play.

Then pass either denies a 5 card suit or a willingness to play 1 NT doubled. 1 NT opener can then bid his/her 5 card suit or Redouble. If opener redoubles, then responder with a runout hand bids the lowest 4 card suit. If responder has the hand that is willing to sit for 1 NTx, then responder passes the redouble.

Occasionally, if responder passes the redouble you might go for a number, but quite often the stronger that doubler is, doubler's partner is weak and under tremendous pressure to pull out of 1 NTxx.
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#31 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-March-14, 03:53

View PostLiversidge, on 2017-March-13, 06:16, said:

Thanks everyone.
Just one further question - what if responder is 4333? The usual guideline is:
If the holding is 4-3-3-3, most partnerships treat the holding as two-suited.
Not sure what that means but I am guessing that if the 4 card suit is a major then you start with your better 3 card minor?

With any 4/3/3/3 hand,when playing Wriggling convention ,the bid is PASS.This alerts the opener that the responder has either 1) a 4/3/3/3 hand or 2) a hand with which he normally would have redoubled.He then takes appropriate action as described by me in my previous post.
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#32 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-March-14, 06:43

View Postnekthen, on 2017-March-13, 16:14, said:

You can play 1Nxx though


LOL
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#33 User is online   gwnn 

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Posted 2017-March-14, 06:52

Transfers are not bad imo (whoever is under the doubler transfers, their partner bids naturally), but natural is also pretty good. Remember to agree 2NT=strong unspecified hand, or have some agreement about the exact meaning (maybe if you play transfers already, it can be minors, or some kinda two-suiter). Also remember to jump to the 3/4 level with a hand suitable for a preempt as they are not only looking to punish you but also often need to find their fit.

Anyway if you do play weak NT, it's pretty important to know what bids mean as 1NT-x-?? will come up all the time. Also be sure to make clear that all of these apply over any kind of x, whatever it means. Sometimes opps will give confusing answers to "what is double here?" and it gets very awkward very quickly to sort it all out.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#34 User is offline   NickRW 

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Posted 2017-March-14, 08:55

Of course, there is also a completely natural system:

Pass = to play
XX = to play
2x = to play

And opener, after pass or XX, 2m = I took a flier (possibly even psyched) with a long minor and prefer to play here

There is a lot to be said for simplicity.
"Pass is your friend" - my brother in law - who likes to bid a lot.
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#35 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2017-March-14, 10:26

Nick's system is my preference with the one addition that if responder takes out and subsequently redoubles it is SOS. The problem with most other systems is that you can often end up one level higher in a 43 fit, which may not generate an extra trick, let alone two.
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#36 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-March-14, 10:33

View PostGrahamJson, on 2017-March-14, 10:26, said:

Nick's system is my preference with the one addition that if responder takes out and subsequently redoubles it is SOS. The problem with most other systems is that you can often end up one level higher in a 43 fit, which may not generate an extra trick, let alone two.


This is what I play, with the addition that if the double is in the protective seat opener and responder can each XX showing majors or minors.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#37 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-March-14, 10:36

View Postrmnka447, on 2017-March-13, 19:03, said:

I also think exit transfer are OK to play.

Then pass either denies a 5 card suit or a willingness to play 1 NT doubled. 1 NT opener can then bid his/her 5 card suit or Redouble. If opener redoubles, then responder with a runout hand bids the lowest 4 card suit. If responder has the hand that is willing to sit for 1 NTx, then responder passes the redouble.

Occasionally, if responder passes the redouble you might go for a number, but quite often the stronger that doubler is, doubler's partner is weak and under tremendous pressure to pull out of 1 NTxx.


Why would opener redouble?
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#38 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2017-March-14, 11:36

View PostVampyr, on 2017-March-14, 10:36, said:

Why would opener redouble?

As I understand it, when responder passes the double, opener does not know whether the pass shows a willingness to play in 1NT X or whether responder is weak with no 5 card suit. Opener redoubles so that responder has another bid and can clarify his position by passing or bidding his lower ranking 4 card suit.
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#39 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-March-14, 11:41

View PostVampyr, on 2017-March-14, 10:36, said:

Why would opener redouble?

If opener rebids a suit, it shows 5 cards. If opener is willing to sit for 1 NTx, then opener passes understanding that responder could be passing on very little. A redouble suggests 1 NTx might not be the best place to play. If responder is willing to sit for the redouble, then responder passes. If not responder bids his/her lowest 4 card suit.
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#40 User is online   gwnn 

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Posted 2017-March-14, 12:48

View PostLiversidge, on 2017-March-14, 11:36, said:

As I understand it, when responder passes the double, opener does not know whether the pass shows a willingness to play in 1NT X or whether responder is weak with no 5 card suit. Opener redoubles so that responder has another bid and can clarify his position by passing or bidding his lower ranking 4 card suit.

Sometimes responder also doesn't know whether or not he has a willingness to play 1NTx or whether it's the least of all evils. That's when he passes and opener should respect that :)
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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