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Opening a freak hand

#1 User is offline   661_Pete 

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Posted 2017-February-19, 09:35

Had this the other day as dealer - game all:
-
AKQJ109xx
KJ10x
x

Probably too strong for a pre-empt, you might say, but nonetheless I decided to open 4 which was passed out - after some hesitation by partner. As it turned out, partner had my losers covered and 13 tricks were laydown.

Since this was Chicago scoring, there was no occasion to think about how this hand might have been bid by anyone else, so I'm asking just out of curiosity: how would others have handled this?
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#2 User is offline   alok c 

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Posted 2017-February-19, 10:37

At the worst you are expected to lose 3 tricks.Why do not open 2?
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#3 User is online   nige1 

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Posted 2017-February-19, 11:39

View Post661_Pete, on 2017-February-19, 09:35, said:

Had this the other day as dealer - game all: - A K Q J 10 9 x x K J 10x x
Probably too strong for a pre-empt, you might say, but nonetheless I decided to open 4 which was passed out - after some hesitation by partner. As it turned out, partner had my losers covered and 13 tricks were laydown.
Since this was Chicago scoring, there was no occasion to think about how this hand might have been bid by anyone else, so I'm asking just out of curiosity: how would others have handled this?
I rank
  • 3N or 4 = ART. Extra strong pre-empt. Assuming that you've agreed such a convention,
  • 4 = PRE. A bit strong. Reese said "A pre-empt that is known to be weak is a blunt sword".
  • 1 = NAT. Extremely unlikely to be passed out,
  • 2 = ART. Partner will expect more high cards. For example, he might try 6N or 7N with say A K J x x x - A K J x x x x

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#4 User is offline   661_Pete 

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Posted 2017-February-19, 11:59

I don't like 2 much - for the very reasons nige1 gives. At our local U3A (which is where this happened) everyone expects 23+ HCP and things could soon get out of control - especially if partner prefers !

There's another bid which hasn't been mentioned so far (and I didn't think of it at the time). At the U3A we all play strong 2's. I personally don't like them much, on BBO I play 3 weak 2's - but at U3A I have to 'go with the flow'. Which amounts, sadly, to avoiding opening 2's (except 2 and 2NT) altogether....

An opening 2 is far less likely to be passed out than 1 - especially when I have only 14 points. Then, whatever partner's response, I can jump to 4 to indicate a rock-solid suit with no support needed. Partner can then take it from there...
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#5 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2017-February-19, 14:28

Way too much slam potential opposite an unpassed hand with very little to shut partner down with 4.

Just open 1, do something forcing next and the grand may even be biddable.
When a deaf person goes to court is it still called a hearing?
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#6 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2017-February-19, 16:53

View Postggwhiz, on 2017-February-19, 14:28, said:

Way too much slam potential opposite an unpassed hand with very little to shut partner down with 4.

Just open 1, do something forcing next and the grand may even be biddable.


I agree with you.
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#7 User is offline   Kaitlyn S 

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Posted 2017-February-19, 22:38

I could pass hoping to double the opponents later after they have bid both black suits to show three four-card red suits :D

Seriously I open 1H planning to rebid 4H unless something awesome happens.
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#8 User is offline   Finanzier 

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Posted 2017-February-20, 06:16

2 had the disadvantage - beside that P will expect more defense tricks - that the opps might go in and mess up terrible the situation so much that the situation is unrecognizable. For you clearness is desirable. You want silent opps or at least not wild bidding opps.

1 has some sympathy. You bid the suit you need something. If you get a !D raise it helps much. But if you prefer strict major bids you will later hardly convince P from your nice .

So best seem me the honest 1 .
Ok, only the suit is honest, but it helps judging whatever P and the opps do. Even if unlikely all pass it might not bad for you.
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#9 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2017-February-20, 06:43

View PostFinanzier, on 2017-February-20, 06:16, said:

1 has some sympathy. You bid the suit you need something. If you get a !D raise it helps much.


Many moons ago either Molson or Baran had a hand like this and opened 1. They played it there opposite a stiff Ace and out with a few hearts and went down 3. :P
When a deaf person goes to court is it still called a hearing?
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#10 User is offline   fourdad 

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Posted 2017-February-20, 07:31

View Postnige1, on 2017-February-19, 11:39, said:

I rank
  • 3N or 4 = ART. Extra strong pre-empt. Assuming that you've agreed such a convention,
  • 4 = PRE. A bit strong. Reese said "A pre-empt that is known to be weak is a blunt sword".
  • 1 = NAT. Extremely unlikely to be passed out,
  • 2 = ART. Partner will expect more high cards. For example, he might try 6N or 7N with say A K J x x x - A K J x x x x



Is there a reason to ignore that 2C is 22-23+ OR a maximum of 4 losers? Given that agreement and continuing to rebid hearts by opener, a clear picture of the hand should be obvious to partner.
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#11 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-February-20, 08:16

We play Precision system of bidding so there will not be the slightest difficulty of finding partners hand.
1Club -any response
3Heart ( For the given hand)
This 3 Heart which is
a jump bid sets the suit and asks for 1) Specific ace or aces leaving aside heart Ace.
Responses: If partner has an Ace he bids that Ace With 2Aces he bids:5C to show Cand S aces,5D to show D and C aces 5H to show all three aces and 5S to show S and D aces.With no ace he bids 4H.With a king or Queen he bids 3NT. 2)Opener then makes a relay of 4C to ask specific Kings the same way with no king responder bids 4 H and 3)opener relays with 4 S and responder shows specific Queen by bidding it.With 2 Kings or 2 Queens the replies are as described for showing the Aces.After an Ace showing response opener bids the next step suit ,except the trump suit and responder shows the king etc. This method can be applied in SAYC after say a 2C opening and a 2 D response.The method has been used successfully by us and have bid a small or grand slam fully knowing the high cards upto queen of any suit.
This gadget I ,politely, point out has not been described in any book on Precision system and it's different versions.
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#12 User is offline   Joe_Old 

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Posted 2017-February-20, 08:36

there is a convention called NAMYATS (stayman backward) which describes this hand perfectly. There are several variations. Basically, open at the 4 level as a transfer into the suit you want (4 for ) to show a hand too good for a pre-empt and too weak for a strong 2.
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#13 User is offline   Left2Right 

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Posted 2017-February-20, 09:15

Namyats is one viable choice here, but freaky one-suited hands can also be had in the minors.

For the truly thorough, I suggest looking up the Schenken Two Diamond construct. From the very first call, the freaky hand holder discovers his partner's specific aces, kings and even queens if needed.

I couldn't find a good recitation of it online, but Schenken's book is still rattling around at Amazon.

Also, you and especially your partner can practice such hands at a BBO bidding table using one of my handy-dandy BBO constraint files. See Bizzaro!.
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#14 User is offline   RD350LC 

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Posted 2017-February-20, 10:32

As dealer, I would tend to open this hand 1H. With your hand distribution, it won't be passed out. Maybe 3rd or 4th hand, I would open this 4H, as then p has shown less than an opening bid, and slam is not likely.
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#15 User is offline   bberris 

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Posted 2017-February-20, 10:39

Open 4NT ! Asks for specific aces, and prevents opps from finding a save.

http://www.bridgeweb...204NT%20BID.htm
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#16 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2017-February-20, 11:38

Instead of noting how one's favorite oddball convention (Namyats and the like) would address this, let's just figure out what to do in standard 2/1.

The choices appear to be between 1H, 2C, and 4H. Each has advantages and disadvantages.

1H: This hand isn't getting passed out. The problem here is that the auction could be at the 4S level by the time you get to make another bid. Now what are you going to do? 5H, I guess.

2C: You have 10 tricks or so, which is more than good enough (8.5 with a major is fine). You just have to have the agreement that 2C can be bid with this sort of hand (which I think is the right agreement).

4H: With both vul, I think 4H is a bit of an underbid. You have 10 tricks or so, and 4H should show 8. At unfavorable, however, I think I would bid 4H.

I think either 1H or 2C is fine.

Cheers,
Mike
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#17 User is offline   WhiteyEGR 

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Posted 2017-February-20, 12:15

A couple of points:

If playing NAMYATS it typically shows 8.5-9 winners (so this hand has too many), while 4H wound be at most 8.

If you're worried about 1H coming back around to you at the 4S level, you should be more worried about 2C coming back around at 4S, especially if it's doubled. You have a bad defensive hand. You would be lucky to get two tricks from it. A 2C opener should have some minimum of defensive values that you and partner can agree on.

This suggests 1H

The post regarding Precision is on the money. If there is no interference the hand is easy to bid out after 1C (and yes, this is worth 1C in Precision) and if you're at 4S on the way back, you're no worse off (and better than you would be after opening a SA 2C, then bidding 5H and hear it go 5S on your left and a cheery Double from partner).

So here's another hand, which I held the other day: QJ1087xx AQxx J9 - A similar problem, complicated by the Heart suit (Any Spade bid opener higher than one will likely make the Heart suit disappear in the bidding) and simplified by having fewer values (so 2C is out)

With any freakish hand the trick is to do something reasonable - you don't need to hit the bullseye, just ht the target.
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#18 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2017-February-20, 13:08

In my view opening 2C on this sort of hand is asking for disaster. Too often partner will add his ten or more points, holding say AQJxx x xxx KQxx, to the assumed 23 in our hand and will end up bidding 6NT, or worse. And if you have an agreement that a 2C opening can include this sort of extreme distributional hand you make "normal" 2C openers unbiddable.

In practice this hand is a good advert for Acol twos. If you don't play those then there is little option but to open 1H, unless you play transfer 4C or some other suitable toy. Actually, in third or fourth position I think 4H is a fair bid which I wouldn't criticise too much.
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#19 User is offline   Joe_Old 

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Posted 2017-February-20, 14:27

View PostWhiteyEGR, on 2017-February-20, 12:15, said:

A couple of points:

If playing NAMYATS it typically shows 8.5-9 winners (so this hand has too many), while 4H wound be at most 8.

If you're worried about 1H coming back around to you at the 4S level, you should be more worried about 2C coming back around at 4S, especially if it's doubled. You have a bad defensive hand. You would be lucky to get two tricks from it. A 2C opener should have some minimum of defensive values that you and partner can agree on.

This suggests 1H

The post regarding Precision is on the money. If there is no interference the hand is easy to bid out after 1C (and yes, this is worth 1C in Precision) and if you're at 4S on the way back, you're no worse off (and better than you would be after opening a SA 2C, then bidding 5H and hear it go 5S on your left and a cheery Double from partner).

So here's another hand, which I held the other day: QJ1087xx AQxx J9 - A similar problem, complicated by the Heart suit (Any Spade bid opener higher than one will likely make the Heart suit disappear in the bidding) and simplified by having fewer values (so 2C is out)

With any freakish hand the trick is to do something reasonable - you don't need to hit the bullseye, just ht the target.



Too many quick tricks for NAMYATS? Try playing the hand opposite xxxxx x xx xxxxx and show us how you make more than 9 tricks in . I'm giving responder too few HCP? Give responder AKQJ10 x xx KQJ109 and the result is the same.

When Sam Stayman first proposed the convention (before later writers altered it to the NAMYATS format), he gave this hand as an example, saying that you should use the convention if the 4 card suit is a minor, but not a major.

I agree that this convention is not a cure all, mostly because it gives up the 4 level for minor suit pre-empts (which is why one writer proposed a system starting with 3 NT). I was simply pointing out that a major bridge theorist (who doesn't play Stayman after a 1 NT opener?) had long ago proposed a fix. The fact that few players use the convention now implies that it probably wasn't a great fix.
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#20 User is offline   SteveMoe 

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Posted 2017-February-20, 14:48

Even with all the aforementioned issues with opening 2, I have no trouble doing so.
2 - 2
3
tells partner to show where their values lie. are trump and opener has 4 or fewer losers. The auction can procede naturally from there and partner knows now the value of their cover cards.

Note: this is not so different from a Precision auction albeit one level lower:
1 - 1
2(Zeta Ask) and so on...
Even with black suit interference from opponents, we will bid at least to 4 and responder will know that 3 working cover cards means slam.
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