[Kungsgeten]

I haven't read much about canapé frameworks outside of strong club systems, but I think the French played canapé a couple of decades back? Anyway I was thinking about 5542 structures where 1♣ is natural or weak NT, including ALL 5332 hands (1♦♥♠ openings would be unbalanced). Then I started thinking about canapé in this framework, perhaps something like this:

1♣ = Any 12-14 NT, or 11-21 4+♣ canapé or 6+♣
1♦ = 11-21, 4+♦ canapé or 6+♦
1♥♠ = 11-21. 4+M canapé or 6+M
1NT = 15-17
2♣ = Strong
2♦ = 18-19 NT

My idea is to play transfers over 1♣, and accepting the transfer could perhaps show 5+ cards in the other major (possibly 5M332).

An issue I've had with nebulous/short minor openings is that minimum unbalanced hands with that minor can be hard to show in competition later. In a canapé framework, it would probably be easier to compete: 1♣-(1♥)-pass-(2♥); 2♠ = 5+♠ and 4+♣, non forcing. A double could be an unbalalanced power double (Italian style)? Some of the minimum hands could be removed from 1♣:

1♣ = 12-14 NT, or 16-21 4+♣ canapé or 11-21 6+♣
1♦ = 11-21, 4+♦ canapé or 6+♦ or 11-15 5+♦ 4♣ (a 2♣ rebid would show 5-4 minors either way)
1M = Canapé style
1NT = 15-17
2♣ = 18-19 NT or any GF
2♦ = 22-24 NT or weak major
2♥♠ = Roman. 5+ major and 4+♣, 11-15
2NT = 20-21

I haven't thought about the continuations very much, and have little experiments of canapé systems, but to me the idea seems sound.

[nullve]

It's very dangerous to pass a wide-ranging canapé opening without a fit, and I think that's the main reason why Roman Club used Herbert negatives.

Two ways to avoid the need for Herbert negatives:

1) Play "14+" 1-level suit openings, as in Fantunes/Mosca
2) Use canapé only on "minimum" (e.g. "11-15") hands.

This post has been edited by nullve: 2017-February-02, 03:08

[spotlight7]

You might want to read Natural Big Club by George Coffin.


Weak NT and 4 card openers canapé style. 2C showed 5332 hearts or a strong hand without 4 Clubs. 2D showed 5332 spades.



If you are worried about bidding in competition, Roman Club opened 1C* with 12-16 balanced hands or various 17+ hands.


When partner is 12-16, they always have 2+ card support.

[phoenix214]

Not a pretty idea but how about playing precision 2 club opening? Obviously that needs other tweaks. This is a solution to the problem of unbalanced hands in competition.
As the 1X, not clubs openings are not balanced, you could in theory play them F1 round, like Fantunes, in that case have to identify what other problems we will have, likley how the problem is on how we implement Gazilli here.

[nullve]

phoenix214, on 2017-February-02, 04:58, said:

Not a pretty idea but how about playing precision 2 club opening?

Fab Roman uses a canapé version of that, except that the range is 11-17 rather than 11-15.

phoenix214, on 2017-February-02, 04:58, said:

As the 1X, not clubs openings are not balanced, you could in theory play them F1 round, like Fantunes, in that case have to identify what other problems we will have, likley how the problem is on how we implement Gazilli here.

Interestingly, the 1986 version of Roman Club uses a kind of (proto?-)Gazzilli.

[Kungsgeten]

phoenix214, on 2017-February-02, 04:58, said:

Not a pretty idea but how about playing precision 2 club opening? Obviously that needs other tweaks. This is a solution to the problem of unbalanced hands in competition.
As the 1X, not clubs openings are not balanced, you could in theory play them F1 round, like Fantunes, in that case have to identify what other problems we will have, likley how the problem is on how we implement Gazilli here.

You mean in a natural system, or in this canapé framework? I think a natural 2♣, and 2♦ as GF, could be nice in a short club framework but then you'll have to put the 18-19 NT at the 1-level.

I've been thinking about Swedish Club with canapé (ofcourse) but not sure how to treat 5M332 hands. They could ofcourse open 1♣ (12-14 NT or 17+), as long as you're prepared to miss 5-3 major fits (I think its easier to find them after a short club opening). You could put 5M332 into the 1M openings (I believe Ken does so in MICS), but to me it seems just as awkward as putting them in 1♣. Another option could be to open the major with 12-14 NT and a four card major, while opening 1♣ could include 5M332 but not 4M332/4M432. However I like the thought of having 1M as unbalanced, but perhaps they're underloaded then if also playing limited openings.

1♣ = 12-14 NT (including 5M332) or 17+ any. Could possibly find out if opener has 5M via XY-NT or other form of checkback.
1♦ = Unbalanced. Both minors (5-4 either way, rebids 2♣), or 4+♦ and 5+M, or 6+♦.
1♥♠ = Unbalanced, canapé or single-suited.
1NT = 15-17, including 5M332
2♣ = 6+♣
2♦ = Multi/Wagner
2♥♠ = Roman (5(+) major and 4+♣)
2NT = Not sure, depends on the contents of 2♦ and the 1♣ continuations. 9-12 5-5 majors could be an idea.

[phoenix214]

Quote

You mean in a natural system, or in this canapé framework?

The OP was short club, so the offer stands for that.

Also, why do you have to miss 5-3 fits when opening 1C? If you are minimum, sure that is a problem, but that is the same tradeoff, when you open 1N, so it should not be that bad.

For game going hands - add some option for puppet stayman?

@Nullve
The idea to use 2C as natural comes from Nightmare, where they play weak NT, with intermediate 2C, and forcing 1C - something inbetween Natural and Fantunes, you can say.

[PrecisionL]

Yes, Coffin's Natural Big Club is an interesting read. Playing 1♣ = 4+♣ eliminates the need for Roman 2-bids. The disadvantage in playing Canape then, is that 5M332 hands that are suit oriented have no bid except 1NT. We used 2-bids in the majors for 10-14 hcp hands with 5M332 or 6M322 (a weak 6-cd major without 2 honors). This has the added advantage that partner with a void or singleton in your major can show his suit knowing you have 2-cd (often 3-cd) support.

M. Coffin also claimed that Canape was first used in the USA in 1936 in New Hampshire by the late George O. Charron of Nashua. Mr. Coffin calls this approach FCF, four cards first, to distinguish it from the Roman use of opening in a 3-cd suit to show a 5-cd suit on the 2nd round of bidding.

About 1954, claims Coffin, is when Pierre Albarran of Paris introduced Canape into Europe and he developed the modern (1969) French bidding style so that 49,999,999 Frenchmen are right.

The top Italian players were quick to adopt Canape bids to base their bidding systems, both the Roman Club and to a lesser degree, the Neapolitan Club.

Edited: 1/31/2023: BRIDGE, Nouvelle Methode de Nomination Les Jeux Bicolores "Le Canape", published in 1946, Paris.

[nullve]

I'm having trouble coming up with a raise structure over 1m that makes sense, given that Opener might have a 5c or longer major on the side.

[PrecisionL]

nullve, on 2017-March-04, 13:44, said:

I'm having trouble coming up with a raise structure over 1m that makes sense, given that Opener might have a 5-cd or longer major on the side.

Yes, that can be a problem. The cure IMHO is to give up Limit Raises and have 1m - 2m = 6-11 hcp with/without 3-cd support for either or both majors.