[antonylee]

While thinking about Han's excellent article (http://bridgewinners...of-information/) on the cost of information leakage, I realized that the modern puppet structure (looking for a 4-4 fit via 3C, 3D does not promise a 4cM) is quite conducive to another swap: what if responder bids his 4cM over 3D rather than the oM? Then you will play the 4-4 fits from responder's side, which may be "wrong-sided", but would truly minimize the amount of information the defense has about the hidden hand (game-only strength, 4 cards in that suit). In a WNT context, I am pretty sure this is overall better, but what about in a SNT context? (You also remove the option of a lead director to the opponents)

A second swap that is possible is to exchange with the direct 3M calls. mbodell mentions a bit further in the thread that he plays such calls as 4oM (i.e. you don't bother going through 3C first, thus denying the opps the information about whether a 5cM is held), although playing them a 4M works too. It may look wasteful to lose 3M as splinters (the most common treatment, I think) but in fact you can put the splinters back into puppet: over 1N-3C-3D, 3M is a splinter; over 1N-3C-3M, if you were planning to splinter in this major you bid 3N (to play); if you were planning to splinter in the other major you have now instead directly found your 5-3 fit. Such auctions leak a bit more information but are of course much rarer than "opener has a GF with a 4cM", so it should be fine.

[nullve]

One option is to play e.g. 4OM over

1N-(3♣
3♦)-3OM = "GF, 4 M"

as a counter-transfer to M.

[msjennifer]

It is my " personal" opinion that a major suit of five cards headed by one of the three top honours should not be concealed by opening as 1NT,unless one has vulnerable tenaces in the outside suits.In Precision ,since a 1NT opening is 13/15 HCP,one never ever hides a 5 cad major suit by opening 1NT.The propriety is a 1NT opening gets easily passed by responder holding a flat 5/7 HCP and a 4333 (any) hand,whereas if the major is opened an easy raise is available ,more so, if it is the Spade suit.
There are many development schemes of developng a 1NT opening are available with or without Stayman,Lebensohl,Wriggling ,Transfers,Texas and South African Texas etc using which one can find out major or minor suit fits and make the final contract playable from the right hand.However it is the first priority to reach the right contract.With no intervention by the opponents one can not have an idea whether the lead may be going through a King or the King is on safe side.The difficulty playing standard is that either minor suit opening can be a prepared bid and sometimes a holding of 15 HCP is opened1NT Holding a 5/6 card minor suit and a balanced hand since the hand can not be described for want of a convenient rebid.A system is an excellent system if it gives correct results in 90p.c. Bidding situations.Too many gadgets only puts a pressure on the mind in bidding the hand,and again the superfine new gadgets or conventions are of very little use except in team games as in pairs unless it is a fixed partnersh ip there is only a possible confusuion on occasions.

[Zelandakh]

msjennifer, on 2017-January-15, 09:16, said:

It is my " personal" opinion that a major suit of five cards headed by one of the three top honours should not be concealed by opening as 1NT,unless one has vulnerable tenaces in the outside suits.In Precision ,since a 1NT opening is 13/15 HCP,one never ever hides a 5 cad major suit by opening 1NT.

There are many forms of Precision. While the original form did have a 13-15 NT opening, much more common these days is 14-16. As far as I know, experts using both ranges would consider opening 1NT with a 5 card major routine.

msjennifer, on 2017-January-15, 09:16, said:

A system is an excellent system if it gives correct results in 90p.c. Bidding situations.

A success rate of 90% at achieving the optimal result would indeed be excellent in an auction like (P) - 1♣ - (4♠). In uncontested auctions, 90% would be extremely poor.

msjennifer, on 2017-January-15, 09:16, said:

Too many gadgets only puts a pressure on the mind in bidding the hand,and again the superfine new gadgets or conventions are of very little use except in team games as in pairs unless it is a fixed partnersh ip there is only a possible confusuion on occasions.

If your point is that a pair should understand a convention before agreeing to play it then I am right there with you. If your point is that conventions do not bring an advantage even if properly understood then I will respectfully disagree.

[mycroft]

Some of this boils down to a very simple question: How often does your 1♠-2♠ auction get passed out?

If the answer is "a lot", then never open 1NT with a 5cM. You will play the 2M contracts better than they play in NT for a great score, more often than not.

If the answer is "almost never" - Larry Cohen's "I'd rather be -1100 than -110" - then the 1NTers win when taking 5M332s out of their 1M auctions is right (especially 1♥-1♠; 1NT, no matter the opening NT range, unless you're playing Precision w/12-15 NT and no 11s or 10s opened); and also when 1NT-AP beats 3 of their suit *or* 3 of ours.

My answer, in my area, is "almost never, less frequently in A than in open, and when it is (at least by the A players) it's not likely to play well".

Having said that, my system opens only very rarely 1NT w/5cM (and we no longer play a natural NT overcall). YMMV, and my guess is that in msjennifer's world, it does.

[Phil]

Regarding the threadjack. Opening 1N with a 5cM is a big winner.

As far as concealment is concerned I dont think its sound to put 60% of the points on the table. This is in addition to rightsiding but maybe its sensible to offer a volley-back call: 1N 3C 3D 3H ....something other than 3S could mean "you play it".

I play a GF relay after a nebulous club. 1C 1N 2C essentially shows a weak NT and pulls us off relays. Follow up bidding is designed where responder inquires and opener shows.

[msjennifer]

Zelandakh, on 2017-January-16, 09:59, said:

There are many forms of Precision. While the original form did have a 13-15 NT opening, much more common these days is 14-16. As far as I know, experts using both ranges would consider opening 1NT with a 5 card major routine.


A success rate of 90% at achieving the optimal result would indeed be excellent in an auction like (P) - 1♣ - (4♠). In uncontested auctions, 90% would be extremely poor.


If your point is that a pair should understand a convention before agreeing to play it then I am right there with you. If your point is that conventions do not bring an advantage even if properly understood then I will respectfully disagree.

Yes.I do mean that a pair should understand,discuss in detail, a convention before agreeing to play it.Conventions certainly do bring a considerable advantage.My point is only regular partnerships can utilise them to the best extent.We often get strange partners in individual events and there is no time for discussion and unless both are experts in the use of the convention .One of my partners profile showed the response of 5 C to RKC as showing 0 or 4 Key cards.I found out he had only Three key cards and so went down one the Grand which I bid so confidently.The response as per his profile should have been 5 D.I ,humbly,hope you get my point.
As regards your suggestion that we use a 1NT to include a five card major and modify the HCP range to 14/16 ,I beg to differ .

[Zelandakh]

msjennifer, on 2017-January-16, 19:42, said:

One of my partners profile showed the response of 5 C to RKC as showing 0 or 4 Key cards.I found out he had only Three key cards and so went down one the Grand which I bid so confidently.The response as per his profile should have been 5 D.I ,humbly,hope you get my point.

I am not aware of a standard version of RKCB including a 0 or 4 response so I might have been inclined to ask in advance what was meant. RKCB is typically 1430 or 3041. Otherwise, sure, I get your point.

msjennifer, on 2017-January-16, 19:42, said:

As regards your suggestion that we use a 1NT to include a five card major and modify the HCP range to 14/16 ,I beg to differ .

It is not so much a suggestion as describing the most common form played these days. The "modern" (ie post-1970s) trend has been towards a nebulous 1♦ (2+) opening that includes balanced 11-13hcp hands and allowing the NT ranges to be less awkwardly arranged. In many Eastern European countries, they go further with their 1♦ opening and 0+ length is not uncommon. It is basically a fairly big loser not to be opening decent 12 counts nowadays - catching the 11s in addition is just a bonus. If you want to continue with the original Wei Precision, what I would suggest is softening the bottom end to make a 12+-15 NT range (or even just 12-15). That at least keeps you competitive on a common problem type. The other issues can just about we lived with as they come up less often.

[helene_t]

Zelandakh, on 2017-January-16, 09:59, said:

In uncontested auctions, 90% would be extremely poor.

Hmmm ... I think there are quite many uncontested auctions where normal systems would fail to
- stop in a safe 1NT when responder has a game try which opener would reject
- find the optimal 3NT despite a major suit fit
- find the optimal 2m partscore after a 1nt opening
- rightside the contract

[Zelandakh]

helene_t, on 2017-January-18, 03:36, said:

Hmmm ... I think there are quite many uncontested auctions where normal systems would fail to

It is certainly true that no system will get every uncontested hand correct and I can think of a few additional categories of hand to add to your list. However the number of problem hands is way less than 10% and the volume of "normal" hands means that the overall success rate has to be very high. To score below 90% a system would need to be performing badly on a lot of simple hands that every well-designed system ought to be getting right.