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do bots know other hands?

#1 User is offline   thomas c 

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Posted 2017-January-12, 14:07

im pretty the bots know not only their partners hands but mine. i dont really mind this as it is really good practice. the defense (esp sgainst nt is sometime totally different from defenses
from other human players). today i had a bot take the second club lead and lead another club forcing me to cash the clubs in dummy or lose them. my hand was squeezed by this. what a defense!

anyone else

tom
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#2 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2017-January-12, 15:16

View Postthomas c, on 2017-January-12, 14:07, said:

im pretty the bots know not only their partners hands but mine.


I'm pretty sure that you are wrong
Alderaan delenda est
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#3 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2017-January-12, 16:45

View Postthomas c, on 2017-January-12, 14:07, said:

im pretty the bots know not only their partners hands but mine.


Sometimes I think they forget their own hands.
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#4 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2017-January-12, 19:30

The bug reports regarding weird leads are a mix of...
- That weird lead worked terribly. Why doesn't GIB know to make normal leads!
- That weird lead worked incredibly. Why does GIB know everyone's hand!

Also sprinkled in are some "I lost to QJ doubleton twice in one hand. Why doesn't restricted choice work with the robots?"

To be clear, GIB does not know anyone else's hand.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#5 User is offline   thomas c 

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Posted 2017-January-13, 10:51

of course i reapect both your opinions. i play 20 0r more robot tourneys in a week and im still pretty sure they know the hands. doesnt really matter to me. it is really good practice both declaring and defense since the bots do things so differently.
do they make mistakes? sure otoh they never miss which last card to save and they never pitch the wrong card if you are running suit. they can be squeezed but that is always true if it is there.
i prob average 60 percent of so at mps and have hit 82 percent (only once)

good luck guys
tom
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#6 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2017-January-13, 14:26

To me, the surprising thing about this is that someone who plays 20 or more robot tourneys a week, and is sufficiently competent at the game to average 60%, should hold these views.

Incidentally, personally, I download every hand that I play into SQL files via Double Dummy Solver software, so I don't have to guess at my likely average. The software tells me it precisely.

May I also say, if I ever felt inclined to make a claim of this nature, I would upload to a public area my SQL file(s) for peer review.

For the record, put me down as someone who does not believe that GIB cheats.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
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#7 User is offline   thomas c 

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Posted 2017-January-13, 16:13

View Post1eyedjack, on 2017-January-13, 14:26, said:

To me, the surprising thing about this is that someone who plays 20 or more robot tourneys a week, and is sufficiently competent at the game to average 60%, should hold these views.

Incidentally, personally, I download every hand that I play into SQL files via Double Dummy Solver software, so I don't have to guess at my likely average. The software tells me it precisely.

May I also say, if I ever felt inclined to make a claim of this nature, I would upload to a public area my SQL file(s) for peer review.

For the record, put me down as someone who does not believe that GIB cheats.

you are certainly entitled to your opinion. hope u have a nice day.
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#8 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2017-January-13, 17:11

See, the difference between opinion and facts is data. Humans, we is gullible (all of us, which is why we have such rigorous procedures for science, to try to automate away the bias and gullibility) and we are pattern-matchers extraordinaire (and bridge players even more so, via training or self-selection).

Which is why we used to have (and still see occasionally) discussions on how unfair, twisted, biased,... those damn computer hands are. While accepting the wild sets of hand-dealt as "wow, the boards sure are swingy tonight" and forgetting about the boring sets (computer and hand-dealt alike). It's why I'm "well known" as a bad card holder, and having "Always Pass As Dealer" on my card - because the nights like last Wednesday, where as opener I averaged 15, with only one out of 8 hands passed (and none preempted) are forgotten, but the nights I average 7 high as dealer and do always pass is a running joke from partners and opponents.

In this case, I can listen to the person who seems to be responsible for the play engine, who is a much better bridge player than you or I will ever be, who lives and works in Las Vegas, and who I know has previous experience in the casinos in game security; I can listen to the person who records every hand and has the SQL tools to analyze them - and probably does - looking for bias; or I can listen to someone whose opinion is that "well, I'm sure they're looking at my hand, and I'm unsure from the play whether they look at all of them".

"The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet." - Damon Runyon

What I want to know is, if the robots are looking at my hand, why they pooch my suits as partner so often, especially when they ignore my brilliant switch to do so. Because that never happens when I'm declarer. Also why, when I play anonymously, I am subject to "human worst hand" policies. I'm sure it's deliberate.
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#9 User is offline   iandayre 

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Posted 2017-January-14, 16:52

View Post1eyedjack, on 2017-January-13, 14:26, said:

To me, the surprising thing about this is that someone who plays 20 or more robot tourneys a week, and is sufficiently competent at the game to average 60%, should hold these views.

Incidentally, personally, I download every hand that I play into SQL files via Double Dummy Solver software, so I don't have to guess at my likely average. The software tells me it precisely.

May I also say, if I ever felt inclined to make a claim of this nature, I would upload to a public area my SQL file(s) for peer review.

For the record, put me down as someone who does not believe that GIB cheats.


As long as there have been computer-dealt cards in live tournaments, there have been players who believe they are reviewed and modified by tournament organizers. An similar and equally ridiculous idea that won't go away. But Jack, why the need to download hand files to learn your percentage? BBO provides this information without extra work on our parts.
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#10 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2017-January-15, 01:12

View Postiandayre, on 2017-January-14, 16:52, said:

But Jack, why the need to download hand files to learn your percentage? BBO provides this information without extra work on our parts.

It only retains them for a couple of months (or so). Well, not true. It retains them for ever but only in public domain for a couple of months. Unless perhaps you subscribe to BridgeBrowser (if it still exists).

There are other benefits to downloading them. You can do what-if analyses on alternative lines of play, and BBO does not provide DD result tables (just a couple of examples). And if you were concerned that GIB might be peaking at unseen hands your only real chance of establishing or disproving that hypothesis is by working with downloaded data.

Also, if you wanted to know your percentage average score restricted to hands against specific opponents (ie GIB) I don't know how to do that just by looking at live pages on MyHands.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
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#11 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2017-January-18, 11:30

View Postthomas c, on 2017-January-13, 10:51, said:

of course i reapect both your opinions. i play 20 0r more robot tourneys in a week and im still pretty sure they know the hands.

It's not an opinion. It's a fact. GIB does not know the other hands. And if you believe otherwise, that is also not a (valid) opinion. It is... a conspiracy theory?
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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