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I Didnít Vaccinate My Kids and the One Who Lived Turned out Fine

#21 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-January-19, 10:25

View Postbarmar, on 2017-January-12, 10:27, said:

Everyone who got Jenner's original smallpox vaccine is dead now. Coincidence?


The original test was with cow pox - how many 100-year-old cows do you see, hmmm?
If something cannot go on forever, it will stop. - Herb Stein
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#22 User is offline   olegru 

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Posted 2017-January-19, 10:43

View Postbarmar, on 2017-January-19, 09:43, said:

I heard on the radio a few weeks ago that some high schools and colleges have started giving classes on distinguishing real from "fake" news.

But now I'm wondering if that was real news. :)

Somehow "like" button was not available for me to mark that post. Good one!
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#23 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2017-January-19, 11:03

You can't "like" an admin. They have a very low opinion of themselves, and can't afford to be proven wrong.

Note: one of those sentences is true.
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#24 User is offline   olegru 

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Posted 2017-January-19, 13:54

Poor lonely admins, nobody likes them. ;)
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#25 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-January-19, 15:56

View Postolegru, on 2017-January-19, 13:54, said:

Poor lonely admins, nobody likes them. ;)

I didn't take this job to make friends. I just wanted the power. :)

#26 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2017-January-19, 16:31

BarmarOFH?
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#27 User is offline   onoway 

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Posted 2017-January-19, 23:57

For what it's worth, and I expect to get flamed or whatever for this, I am very very reluctant to advise anyone to get their child vaccinated. I have a very strong conviction that anything that a company produces that is a) protected by the government from being held accountable for the impact it has and b) is extremely profitable for companies to produce and 3) has as far as I can see got very little current research being done on the efficacy or the long term side effects on either the vaccines alone OR the combination thereof is something to be extremely wary about.

I fail to see the wisdom of injecting aluminum, glyphosate ( now being used to replace mercury, which is still occassionally used) into very young children.I fail to see the urgency of now injecting children with some incredible number of vaccinations -in my day I believe we had 5, now it's in the hundreds, and somehow the population kept growing in spite of our lack of vaccinations. The original inspiration, that milkmaids never got smallpox was very different, the milkmaids were not getting the pox vaccine injected into their bloodstream, mixed with material known to be toxic to people. The severity of the disease is also of a different order of magnitude than that of measles, for instance.

Admittedly I am prejudiced, since I dutifully got my son vaccinated until a friend's healthy active child very nearly died after getting a dose of live vs killed vaccine, after which none of my kids got vaccinated for anything and they are all obnoxiously healthy. My son got measles, he got over it, like a minor case of the flu with spots.

There is actually a growing body of research suggesting that the sort of article above is the same sort of thing that was done around tobacco being good for you. A couple of links http://www.greenmedi...vaccination-all to research and a blog from the same place regarding this question: http://www.greenmedi...stem-against-us

Anyone who wants to can wade through all those research articles.

One stat I found interesting though I don't remember where I read it is that the US vaccinates more than virtually any other country, but the incidence of illness is not lower. At all. In fact in health care the US is somewhere down around 17th in the world. If more vaccinations is the answer then why should that be so? And why are ads for flu vaccines saying things like, "most children who got the flu last year were not vaccinated." Most? why only MOST ? was the vaccine actually doing not anything at all and it was just random who got it and who didn't? Does anyone even know?

Aluminum, for instance, is generally accepted as being toxic to people, it's why it's used as a carrier. For those medical people here, just how much aluminum is safe for humans to have injected into them before it has a negative affect? Does anyone even know, percentage of body weight? How much of the reaction is to the carrier, aluminum or whatever, and how much to the actual vaccine? And is there a long term effect on combining a bunch of vaccines to be given at once, as there are sometimes interactions if certain drugs or even herbal concoctions are used?

Then there is the question of retroviruses which I admittedly don't really understand.But they are now acknowledged to be probably? possibly? there,they are potentially scary, and nobody much is talking about them, certainly not the pro vaccination people.

Bottom line for me though, is if the companies producing these things cannot be held accountable, then I'm not letting them inject it into my child's body. I wouldn't even buy a new coffeepot without expecting some sort of warranty, I get it home and it doesn't work, I am going to get my money back. If there is some sort of flaw in it and it blows up and takes off half my face, or burns down the house, then someone is going to be held accountable for putting out a defective product.

Why should less accountability be accepted for stuff we are injecting into immature immune systems, even babies? Money in that case is not the point, it is possibly a blighted life, as in the case of my friend's daughter, who had some ongoing issues even after she finally got out of hospital.
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#28 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2017-January-20, 03:41

View Postonoway, on 2017-January-19, 23:57, said:

For what it's worth, and I expect to get flamed or whatever for this, I am very very reluctant to advise anyone to get their child vaccinated. I have a very strong conviction that anything that a company produces that is a) protected by the government from being held accountable for the impact it has and b) is extremely profitable for companies to produce and 3) has as far as I can see got very little current research being done on the efficacy or the long term side effects on either the vaccines alone OR the combination thereof is something to be extremely wary about.


Next time you want to launch into one of your sanctimonious lectures about evil corporations screwing people over to make profits and ignoring the common good, please recall that you are doing exactly the same thing.

Herd immunity is one of the most important reason that governments promote vaccination.

There are broad classes of people who can't take vaccines. (The elderly and the immuno-compromised being the two most obvious examples).
If the population at large is vaccinated then diseases aren't going to spread and the risk of contagion becomes trivial.
However, when significant numbers of idiots decide not to vaccinate their children it dramatically increases the risk for everyone else.

As a rule, I don't give a damn what you want to do to your kids. They don't deserve to die of rubella because their mom is an idiot, but I won't lose to much sleep over it if they do.
But the rank hypocrisy is really galling. (The ignorance, that I've come to expect by now)
Alderaan delenda est
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#29 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-January-20, 10:27

View Postonoway, on 2017-January-19, 23:57, said:

Admittedly I am prejudiced, since I dutifully got my son vaccinated until a friend's healthy active child very nearly died after getting a dose of live vs killed vaccine, after which none of my kids got vaccinated for anything and they are all obnoxiously healthy. My son got measles, he got over it, like a minor case of the flu with spots.

Your kids are likely healthy because just about everyone else got their kids vaccinated, so there are no serious diseases running rampant in the community. If they don't encounter others with the diseases, they can't catch it.

But it doesn't work if too many people take your attitude, because if group immunity gets too low, it allows an inroad for the disease into the community.

Do you really deny that we effectively eradicated polio because of vaccines?

#30 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2017-January-20, 11:14

If the goal is to reduce the human population and save HOLY, Sacred planet Earth, if the goal is to reduce the control mankind has over Mother planet Earth then this sounds like a good first step.

OTOH if the goal is to consume planet earth's resources so mankind or whatever humans evolve into so that we can move out into the universe, perhaps not.
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#31 User is offline   onoway 

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Posted 2017-January-20, 14:34

View Posthrothgar, on 2017-January-20, 03:41, said:

Next time you want to launch into one of your sanctimonious lectures about evil corporations screwing people over to make profits and ignoring the common good, please recall that you are doing exactly the same thing.

Herd immunity is one of the most important reason that governments promote vaccination.

There are broad classes of people who can't take vaccines. (The elderly and the immuno-compromised being the two most obvious examples).
If the population at large is vaccinated then diseases aren't going to spread and the risk of contagion becomes trivial.
However, when significant numbers of idiots decide not to vaccinate their children it dramatically increases the risk for everyone else.

As a rule, I don't give a damn what you want to do to your kids. They don't deserve to die of rubella because their mom is an idiot, but I won't lose to much sleep over it if they do.
But the rank hypocrisy is really galling. (The ignorance, that I've come to expect by now)

Did you actually bother to look at any of the research or is this just knee jerk reaction to something you disagree with? Talking about herd mentality...

It would be nice to think that people were able to consider that there is an outside possibility that maybe, just maybe, something which worked well for smallpox may have been taken and turned into something not so benign for diseases not anywhere near as virulent and dangerous.

A little of something is good, then more must be better is a mantra which resonates with people but isn't necessarily true at all.

IF vaccinations are the road to health, then why isn't the US population healthier than that in the rest of the world, instead of being arguably among the least healthy of the developed countries? You spend more than any other country per capita, much more than some countries, so what's going on?

Seems to me that unless people are willing to consider what's going on then it's only going to get worse.And looking to consider what's gone wrong involves looking at EVERYTHING that's changed, NOT assuming that pet theories, well supported by carefully managed public relations campaigns, are above scrutiny.

Aren't the predictions that the generation now entering kindergarten will be the first generation we are aware of predicted to have shorter life spans than their parents? The rise of autoimmune diseases has gone through the roof with no sign at all of slowing down. So rather than expecting people to wither in your totally unimpressive scorn, why not come up with a rational explanation, supported by independent research, instead of parroting the mantra of anyone who has concerns about vaccinations is an idiot.
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#32 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2017-January-20, 14:58

According to Alberta, routine vaccinations are for:
  • Diptheria
  • Tetanus
  • Whooping Cough
  • Polio
  • Bacterial Meningitis
  • Rotavirus
  • Pneumonia
  • MMRV (Measles, Mumps, Rubella (German Measles) and Varicella)
  • Hepatatis B
  • HPV

Of that list, only the last wasn't a major killer of children (major killer in general, for many of them) for centuries. Breakouts of Whooping Cough are coming back after 50 years of being scare stories. The last seems to be a major cause of several kinds of cancers (or could be some really good marketing, or both). Other provinces may vary. I was surprised to see Tuberculosis not on this list - Wikipedia says it's only for high-risk people, as it's basically unknown (now) in Canada-US-UK.

"not anywhere near as virulent and dangerous". Nope. Right now, they aren't. But *only because* most people are immunized against them.
I lived in Ontario when a Meningitis outbreak - 3 people! - hit. One died, if I remember correctly. They immunized 30% of the population in response.
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#33 User is offline   olegru 

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Posted 2017-January-20, 15:15

Hi onoway,
Could you please clarify if you are " very reluctant to advise anyone to get their child vaccinated" at all, or you are in doubts about some of new proposed vaccinations?
I agree that parents should not hurry to test on their babies all new available vaccines, but I have very strong feeling that there are some well proven vaccines against some very serious illnesses that must be used.
You do not have to take a vaccine against season flu, but without a medical reason do not vaccinate kids against (for example) hepatitis B or measles is a borderline crime by my opinion.
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#34 User is offline   onoway 

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Posted 2017-January-20, 16:08

As far as Polio is concerned, this article... with references to studies published in Lancet and other such publications, is I think quite interesting. http://www.thinktwice.com/Polio.pdf
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#35 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2017-January-20, 16:13

View Postolegru, on 2017-January-20, 15:15, said:

Hi onoway,
Could you please clarify if you are " very reluctant to advise anyone to get their child vaccinated" at all, or you are in doubts about some of new proposed vaccinations?
I agree that parents should not hurry to test on their babies all new available vaccines, but I have very strong feeling that there are some well proven vaccines against some very serious illnesses that must be used.
You do not have to take a vaccine against season flu, but without a medical reason do not vaccinate kids against (for example) hepatitis B or measles is a borderline crime by my opinion.



Not sure what a "borderline crime" is. I mean it is a crime or it is not.

In any case Onoway is clearly saying vaccines are deadly, vaccines cause harm, great medical harm.

Also to be fair over the years general medical errors worldwide have caused harm, great medical harm to millions.

"...Medical errors rank behind heart disease and cancer as the third leading cause of death in the U.S., Johns Hopkins researchers say. ... Based on an analysis of prior research, the Johns Hopkins study estimates that more than 250,000 Americans die each year from..."
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#36 User is offline   onoway 

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Posted 2017-January-20, 16:45

Having known many people who had measles when I was a child, and having had them myself, and never having known anyone who had any untoward long term affects from it, or even anyone who knew or had even heard of anyone with any long term issues from having had the measles, it's very difficult to understand the panic around it. My son got it, my daughters never showed any symptoms at all of catching it from him or anyone else. They may have had it and had no symptoms because they had very healthy immune systems or who knows? But it certainly makes it difficult to imagine that anyone who isn't vaccinated is going to run the risk of dying if they come into contact with someone with it, since 2 of the three kids in the house never showed any sign of getting it.

So, it seems to me that making sure the kids have healthy immune systems is more important than shooting them with toxic substances to make sure they stay healthy, that's an idea that basically seems flawed to me. If the vaccines didn't use poisons as adjuvants then perhaps it wouldn't be as questionable...but then you still have questions about retroviruses from the source used to culture the virus in question.

As far as HepB is concerned, this is the list of people for whom this is recommended:
The hepatitis B vaccination is recommended for:

Those who may be exposed to blood or blood products through their occupation:
Healthcare workers who may have contact with blood or body fluids.
Laboratory staff.
Carers of high-risk or known patients.
Morticians and embalmers.
Police and fire and rescue workers.
People travelling to or going to reside in areas of high or intermediate prevalence, particularly travellers with pre-existing medical conditions, who may be at higher risk of requiring medical procedures abroad.
Those individuals who change sexual partners frequently, particularly commercial sex workers.
Injecting drug users. Also:
Partners and children of injecting drug users.
Non-injecting drug users who live with injecting drug users.
Individuals and staff in residential accommodation for those with learning difficulties.
People receiving regular blood or blood products - for example, those with haemophilia or chronic anaemias.
Prisoners and prison officers.
Family contacts of those with chronic hepatitis B infection.
Families adopting children from high-risk countries.
Foster carers.
Those patients with chronic kidney disease or chronic liver disease.
Prevention measures to be taken
Prevention of transmission
Measures to be taken include:

Practise safe sex.
Avoid sharing intravenous drug equipment.
Immunise at-risk individuals.
Wear gloves when exposed to blood or body fluids.
Clear up blood or body fluids, using warm water and detergent.
Ensure surgical instruments are disposable or adequately sterilised.
Handle 'sharps' safely.
Wear goggles if there is risk of infected material splashing into the eye.
Do not permit healthcare workers who are positive for hepatitis B antigen to work in areas where they could be a risk to others.

So clearly if an infant is born to a sex worker or drug addict or is going into a home situation where HepB is possibly an issue, then it is probably very appropriate. But otherwise, how many of the above apply to a newborn?
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#37 User is offline   StevenG 

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Posted 2017-January-20, 16:56

View Postonoway, on 2017-January-20, 16:45, said:

Having known many people who had measles when I was a child, and having had them myself, and never having known anyone who had any untoward long term affects from it, or even anyone who knew or had even heard of anyone with any long term issues from having had the measles, it's very difficult to understand the panic around it

http://who.int/media...heets/fs286/en/
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#38 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-January-20, 17:01

View Postonoway, on 2017-January-20, 16:45, said:

Having known many people who had measles when I was a child, and having had them myself, and never having known anyone who had any untoward long term affects from it, or even anyone who knew or had even heard of anyone with any long term issues from having had the measles, it's very difficult to understand the panic around it. My son got it, my daughters never showed any symptoms at all of catching it from him or anyone else. They may have had it and had no symptoms because they had very healthy immune systems or who knows? But it certainly makes it difficult to imagine that anyone who isn't vaccinated is going to run the risk of dying if they come into contact with someone with it, since 2 of the three kids in the house never showed any sign of getting it.


Well one case in every 5000 is fatal, and it can cause meningitis/encephalitis or make you go blind

http://www.nhs.uk/Co...plications.aspx
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#39 User is offline   onoway 

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Posted 2017-January-20, 17:07

I was interested in the measles being included in the list above so looked it up and the world Health Organization has one comment I found significant ( among others, admittedly I was not aware how severe measles could be)

Severe measles is more likely among poorly nourished young children, especially those with insufficient vitamin A, or whose immune systems have been weakened by HIV/AIDS or other diseases.

So severe measles, is basically a complication of poverty, and so while vaccinations do little to address the cause they will help prevent one of the symptoms of poverty. That's not insignificant, and I will look into it further.
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#40 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2017-January-20, 17:20

I got my information from http://www.health.al...e-schedule.html - http://healthycanadi...endrier-eng.php will give you the relevant site for other provinces. Note that there are no "vaccinations at newborn" - they start at 2 months.

Specifically for HepB, in Alberta, vaccination is only in Grade 5 (approx age 9) - same dose set as HPV, so probably a convenient time. How many in Grade 5, In our rich world, have gone or are going on vacation to a place where there's a high risk of Hepatitis? How many are children of intravenous drug users? How many are children of teachers, or people in the health care industry, or emergency response, or lab techs? Oh and I hate to mention it, but things start happening around age 9 that might increase the chance of being involuntarily involved in (likely non-safe) sex.

No, I'm sure *your* family doesn't fall into any of those categories. Nor does mine (well, my aunt is a nurse, but I and mine don't go over there often). But it's more than you or I think.
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