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Is this rebid by responder forcing - and what point range does it show? Responder rebids a new lower ranking suit after opener bids and rebids

#1 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2017-January-12, 01:53

We play Acol. I opened. The bidding went 1-1-2-2-?
I had 12 HCP and xx AKJx , xx Axxxx. Partner had 11 HCP, 6 good spades and four hearts.
I passed, which I know was a bad mistake. My muddled thinking was that his bid showed 10-11 points max. With more he would have made a different bid to show his strength. Having thought about it I suspect his bid was unlimited - he might have had 16-17 points and still not have had a way of showing his strength. I have been taught that an unlimited bid is forcing.

My question is this: In general, is partner's rebid forcing? And what point range can it show?

(Klinger says a rebid by responder in a new suit after opener makes a simple rebid of his suit is forcing. Brunner says it is not. Both give examples very similar to ours to support their positions.)

No need to comment on my pass. I am feeling bad enough about it as it is! :(
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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-January-12, 03:53

In passing, this problem is why a lot of people play 2 as artificial and forcing here, if you do, 2 can be NF, but otherwise it's forcing, unless you're playing VERY old school where 3 is nat forcing rather than the splinter that most use now.
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#3 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2017-January-12, 05:51

Most people at my club play that the 2 rebid is very often a 5-card suit and doesn't even suggest a particularly good 5-card suit. It is what they would rebid with any 0445, 0134 or 2245 shape without 4-card support.

If that is your style then I think it is better to play 2 as nonforcing, even if you don't have an artificial 2 bid available. Responder can jump to 3 if he really wants to force.

But as usual, it is more important to have a firm agreement with partner than to play optimal methods. If undiscussed I would assume forcing because:
- that is what everyone (except Brunner, apparently) has been recommending for the last few decades
- in general, passing a forcing bid is more risky than bidding on after a NF bid. Both in terms of results and in terms of erosion of partnership trust.

Better would be to avoid rebidding 2 with a mediocre 5-card suit. If that is your agreement then responder can safely pass with any weak hand and hence 2 becomes a 1-round force.

BTW, you should probably open that hand 1NT, somewhat depending on vulnerability. That would have saved you from bidding those **** clubs twice.
Maybe seniors should not be forced to deal with modern technology like bidding boxes and screens. --- Vampyr
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#4 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2017-January-12, 07:15

Undiscussed, I think most players would consider it forcing. I would treat it as forcing unless I had a definite agreement otherwise.


Life is long and beautiful, if bad things happen, good things will follow.
-gwnn
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#5 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-January-12, 07:38

The traditional meaning in Acol is non-forcing but the modern approach is more commonly forcing. If you are so worried about the weak 54 hand, it is better to bring in a Reverse Flannery response than to mess up the constructive auctions.
(-: Zel :-)
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#6 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-January-12, 08:43

As Zel says, this was traditionally non-forcing in Acol, but the modern approach is to treat the bid as forcing. Frances Hinden wrote a great article in English Bridge August 2015 edition (http://www.ebu.co.uk/englishbridge).

You already know that you are worth a raise - even if partner's bid is non-forcing. :)
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#7 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2017-January-13, 02:37

View PostTramticket, on 2017-January-12, 08:43, said:

Frances Hinden wrote a great article in English Bridge August 2015 edition (http://www.ebu.co.uk/englishbridge).



Excellent. Answers all my questions.
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#8 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2017-January-13, 13:08

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-January-12, 03:53, said:

In passing, this problem is why a lot of people play 2 as artificial and forcing here, if you do, 2 can be NF, but otherwise it's forcing, unless you're playing VERY old school where 3 is nat forcing rather than the splinter that most use now.


Is splinter really the most common usage of 3H? Perhaps it is in Britain, I wouldn't know. My thought is if you are not using 3H to handle 5-5 GF hands you get into ambiguous situations. 1c-1s-2c-2d!-3c-3h?? Is this 5-5 GF or worried about diamonds?
1c-1s-2c-2d!-3d-3h what is this?

Personally I'd rather have a way much to unambiguously show a 5-5 majors hand and have opener be able to confidently decide between 4h/3nt/4s than be able to splinter in hearts with club support given silent opponents.
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#9 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-January-14, 06:09

View PostStephen Tu, on 2017-January-13, 13:08, said:

Is splinter really the most common usage of 3H? Perhaps it is in Britain, I wouldn't know. My thought is if you are not using 3H to handle 5-5 GF hands you get into ambiguous situations. 1c-1s-2c-2d!-3c-3h?? Is this 5-5 GF or worried about diamonds?
1c-1s-2c-2d!-3d-3h what is this?

Personally I'd rather have a way much to unambiguously show a 5-5 majors hand and have opener be able to confidently decide between 4h/3nt/4s than be able to splinter in hearts with club support given silent opponents.


1c-1s-2c-2d!-3c-3h?? Is this 5-5 GF or worried about diamonds? 5-5 GF
1c-1s-2c-2d!-3d-3h what is this? 3 shows extras for us, 2N would be bad with diamonds, I suspect 3 is ambiguous but we will be able to play 4N and have the values for it if need be.
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