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Stayman or 3NT?

Poll: Stayman or 3NT? (37 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you roll out (simple) Stayman? (or just bid 3NT)

  1. Yes, 4-4 spade fit will go better (27 votes [72.97%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 72.97%

  2. No. Feels notrumpy, plus don't tell them anything (9 votes [24.32%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 24.32%

  3. No. Crap hand, only worth an invite (1 votes [2.70%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.70%

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#1 User is offline   shevek 

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Posted 2017-January-12, 00:50

15-17


IMPs, nil vul.
Stayman or 3NT, or ....
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#2 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-January-12, 03:15

I am on the fence but if I bid Stayman I will bid 5-card Stayman to find any 8-card major fit if one exists.
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#3 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2017-January-12, 03:18

You should change the option 1 to "yes 4-4 or 5-4 fit will be better"
Most of us open 5M332 hands 1 NT.
I personally play regular stayman and that is what I would do.
Make it (11)12+ hcp and I would blast 3 NT.
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#4 User is offline   lycier 

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Posted 2017-January-12, 04:06

If south holds 4333 shape hand, of course, directly bid up to 3nt, for others shape hand, it would better start with stayman.
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#5 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2017-January-12, 04:59

I'd bid 3nt. This soft rubbish won't play enough better in spades to justify the info leak.

Being 43 as opposed to 42 in the majors is a plus because they'll be tempted to lead one.
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#6 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-January-12, 12:52

It's not enough to look at your hand only and decide it is no-trump. Partner's hand has to be considered, too. Stayman for me.
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#7 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2017-January-12, 13:23

Puppet then 3N.
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#8 User is offline   jogs 

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Posted 2017-January-12, 16:28

View Postlycier, on 2017-January-12, 04:06, said:

If south holds 4333 shape hand, of course, directly bid up to 3nt, for others shape hand, it would better start with stayman.

Ditto. This is pretty much my style. The 4-4 fit must play at least one trick better than notrumps before 4 of a major is superior to 3NT.
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#9 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2017-January-13, 00:20

Here are the factors to consider when comparing a 44 major to 3NT:

1. Do you have the intermediates in your trump suit?

Qs and Js in the trump suit are important. If you don't have good intermediates, a 4-1 trump break could buffalo you. If you do, you can often overcome it.

2. How much strength do you have?

If you are minimum for game, the suit contract will generally make an extra trick. If you have substantial extra strength, however, you might make the same number of tricks on power alone.

3. How good is your side four-card suit?

If your side four-card suit is good, that may provide a good source of tricks for NT.

This one is borderline. Your trump suit isn't great, and you have the Qx in your doub suit. That would argue for 3NT. But you don't have extra power, and your side 4 card suit is not good. That would argue for Stayman.

I can't say either bid is terribly wrong.

Cheers,
Mike

4. Do you have the Q in your doubleton suit?

In order for the ruff not to be useful, you either need to win the third-round trick on power (and Queens win third-round tricks) or else you have to not need the ruff (which is why 2 and 3 are relevant).
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#10 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2017-January-13, 00:20

Here are the factors to consider when comparing a 44 major to 3NT:

1. Do you have the intermediates in your trump suit?

Qs and Js in the trump suit are important. If you don't have good intermediates, a 4-1 trump break could buffalo you. If you do, you can often overcome it.

2. How much strength do you have?

If you are minimum for game, the suit contract will generally make an extra trick. If you have substantial extra strength, however, you might make the same number of tricks on power alone.

3. How good is your side four-card suit?

If your side four-card suit is good, that may provide a good source of tricks for NT.

This one is borderline. Your trump suit isn't great, and you have the Qx in your doub suit. That would argue for 3NT. But you don't have extra power, and your side 4 card suit is not good. That would argue for Stayman.

I can't say either bid is terribly wrong.

Cheers,
Mike

4. Do you have the Q in your doubleton suit?

In order for the ruff not to be useful, you either need to win the third-round trick on power (and Queens win third-round tricks) or else you have to not need the ruff (which is why 2 and 3 are relevant).
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#11 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2017-January-13, 00:20

Here are the factors to consider when comparing a 44 major to 3NT:

1. Do you have the intermediates in your trump suit?

Qs and Js in the trump suit are important. If you don't have good intermediates, a 4-1 trump break could buffalo you. If you do, you can often overcome it.

2. How much strength do you have?

If you are minimum for game, the suit contract will generally make an extra trick. If you have substantial extra strength, however, you might make the same number of tricks on power alone.

3. How good is your side four-card suit?

If your side four-card suit is good, that may provide a good source of tricks for NT.

This one is borderline. Your trump suit isn't great, and you have the Qx in your doub suit. That would argue for 3NT. But you don't have extra power, and your side 4 card suit is not good. That would argue for Stayman.

I can't say either bid is terribly wrong.

Cheers,
Mike

4. Do you have the Q in your doubleton suit?

In order for the ruff not to be useful, you either need to win the third-round trick on power (and Queens win third-round tricks) or else you have to not need the ruff (which is why 2 and 3 are relevant).
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#12 User is offline   aawk 

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Posted 2017-January-13, 05:43

A hand with 10 LTC is better for 3nt then a possible 4 but I am a loosing trick count fan.
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#13 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-January-13, 09:06

View Postmiamijd, on 2017-January-13, 00:20, said:

Here are the factors to consider when comparing a 44 major to 3NT:

1. Do you have the intermediates in your trump suit?

Qs and Js in the trump suit are important. If you don't have good intermediates, a 4-1 trump break could buffalo you. If you do, you can often overcome it.

2. How much strength do you have?

If you are minimum for game, the suit contract will generally make an extra trick. If you have substantial extra strength, however, you might make the same number of tricks on power alone.

3. How good is your side four-card suit?

If your side four-card suit is good, that may provide a good source of tricks for NT.

This one is borderline. Your trump suit isn't great, and you have the Qx in your doub suit. That would argue for 3NT. But you don't have extra power, and your side 4 card suit is not good. That would argue for Stayman.

I can't say either bid is terribly wrong.

Cheers,
Mike

4. Do you have the Q in your doubleton suit?

In order for the ruff not to be useful, you either need to win the third-round trick on power (and Queens win third-round tricks) or else you have to not need the ruff (which is why 2 and 3 are relevant).


OK already! We have got your point!
London, England
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#14 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2017-January-13, 13:40

No one has mentioned the scoring. At IMPs I aim for the major game as generally safer, and yes use 5 card stayman (I use 3)
At MP I will punt 3N.
1. You will be playing with the field
2. Opps cannot double your club bid
3. 10 extra points are really important
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#15 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-January-13, 16:30

View Postnekthen, on 2017-January-13, 13:40, said:

No one has mentioned the scoring. At IMPs I aim for the major game as generally safer, and yes use 5 card stayman (I use 3)
At MP I will punt 3N.
1. You will be playing with the field
2. Opps cannot double your club bid
3. 10 extra points are really important


Was the form of scoring omitted? It is there now.
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#16 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-January-13, 20:00

My personal feeling is ,when this hand is lacking the fillers ,making 9 tricks in NT or 10 tricks in 4S is not possible if opener is BARE minimum.I think that this is an invitational hand only.I shall use Stayman and if P does show a spade suit I shall bid an invitational 3S and on any thing else 2NT again an invitation.
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#17 User is offline   AyunuS 

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Posted 2017-January-14, 00:57

I'd definitely go for Stayman. Only time I wouldn't is if I'm 3334 or maybe if I just don't like my high cards for 4M. Like when you have no honors in what would be the trump suit, and otherwise high cards that are better in NT.
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#18 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2017-January-14, 02:53

View PostVampyr, on 2017-January-13, 16:30, said:

Was the form of scoring omitted? It is there now.


Maybe I missed it, but no one else has mentioned that they would do it different at MP scoring.
Am I alone or do the stayman bidders agree?
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#19 User is offline   shevek 

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Posted 2017-January-14, 05:21



So nothing makes. East had
T3 AK52 7 T86432

and 4 was lost two ruffs for -150.
3NT has no play on a heart lead but a club lead would test West.

Prefer 3NT on the South cards. Likely to be lacking the firepower to hold the defenders to 3 tricks.
Admittedly, the North hand turned out to be very notrumpy.
Terrible hand so there is a case for raising to 2NT. (Hoefully via 2 = clubs or a raise)
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#20 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2017-January-14, 08:11

View Postnekthen, on 2017-January-14, 02:53, said:

Maybe I missed it, but no one else has mentioned that they would do it different at MP scoring.
Am I alone or do the stayman bidders agree?


I think you've got it backwards. At IMPs, for Stayman to substantially gain, you have to be making two+ more tricks in your 4-4 fit (and for those two to be the difference between 3N making 8, and 4M making 10). At MPs, if you only make one more trick in 4M, you'll still get a much better score (regardless of whether you're making or going off).

As for 'playing with the field', I can't see why - I would expect most pairs to go via Stayman (and in Australia, a handful of the field might be playing a weak NT, so very likely to find a spade fit if it exists).
The "4 is a transfer to 4" award goes to Jinksy - PhilKing
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