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BBF challenge event 6 format poll NOT a registration

Poll: BBF challenge event 6 format poll (21 member(s) have cast votes)

Are you interested in this event? (Alert: not a registration)

  1. Yes (20 votes [95.24%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 95.24%

  2. No (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. Depend on format (1 votes [4.76%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.76%

What scoring format do you prefer

  1. IMP, best hand (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. IMP, non-best hand (6 votes [28.57%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 28.57%

  3. BAM(MP), best hand (3 votes [14.29%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.29%

  4. BAM(MP), non-best hand (12 votes [57.14%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 57.14%

What tournament structure do you prefer?

  1. Like most recent BBF challenges (group RR, then KO) (14 votes [66.67%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 66.67%

  2. Like event 2 (All KO) (1 votes [4.76%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.76%

  3. Others (6 votes [28.57%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 28.57%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 User is offline   frank0 

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Posted 2017-January-02, 17:39

Let's start discussing event 6 (Alert again: this is not a registration page). Beside those votes you can make your comments here.
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#2 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2017-January-02, 17:47

I think its time for a BAM.

A well played IMP match will have a lot of pushes, but if you outplay a weaker opponent (or someone having an off day) it probably does not matter what the format is.

Judging from my fourth quarter with SFI, you can get hosed badly when robots go wild. If this happens, I'd rather have it cost me one board than 15 IMPs.
Winner - BBO Challenge bracket #6 - February, 2017.
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#3 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2017-January-02, 18:26

View PostPhil, on 2017-January-02, 17:47, said:

I think its time for a BAM.

A well played IMP match will have a lot of pushes, but if you outplay a weaker opponent (or someone having an off day) it probably does not matter what the format is.

Judging from my fourth quarter with SFI, you can get hosed badly when robots go wild. If this happens, I'd rather have it cost me one board than 15 IMPs.


Agreed. I've had several sets determined largely by who is on the right side of the robot doing something ridiculous. That wasn't even the only double-digit swing the robot created in that match.

P.S. I really like the current group format. Everyone gets a reasonable number of games and one bad set doesn't knock you out.
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#4 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2017-January-02, 18:40

Might be better if the poll allowed you to select multiple options rather than have to pick only one of the 4 play formats.

Regarding IMP v BAM - over the 64 boards I played in pool play last event, about 40% ended in different contracts between the two tables. This isn't unusual; I virtually always try to make the 'correct' bid according to GIB, and am always very surprised when so many auctions turn out differently due to 'unusual' bids at the other table.

In IMPs, I can ignore the bidding at the other table, and try to play the hand optimally. At BAM, if 40% of the time we're going to be in different contracts, it seems like a large proportion of hands are going to end up completely random, since going for an 80% overtrick may well be the wrong strategy. In a daylong MP tourney, the play is much more clear.

Perhaps switching to BAM will change the way everyone else bids to be more 'normal'. If so, I'm fine with it. Otherwise, I don't have a clue how BAM could work.
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#5 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2017-January-03, 03:36

Does everyone like the current group sizes or should we have fewer groups, more matches, longer group stage? I feel like seeding the KO based on the group results is a bit random with the current number of matches. But maybe randomness is fine.
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#6 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2017-January-03, 05:32

View PostStephen Tu, on 2017-January-03, 03:36, said:

Does everyone like the current group sizes or should we have fewer groups, more matches, longer group stage? I feel like seeding the KO based on the group results is a bit random with the current number of matches. But maybe randomness is fine.


There is certainly an element of randomness coming out of the group stages, but I suspect that's hard to avoid with 16 board matches. It feels long enough that if you play reasonably well you can reliably make it into the knockout stage, which is the most important criterion.

That being said, a longer group stage may work well. TBH, anything that avoids a Swiss-style format is a good thing, and the details mostly determine how many matches everyone plays before people start being eliminated.
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#7 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2017-January-03, 07:16

View Postsfi, on 2017-January-03, 05:32, said:

There is certainly an element of randomness coming out of the group stages, but I suspect that's hard to avoid with 16 board matches. It feels long enough that if you play reasonably well you can reliably make it into the knockout stage, which is the most important criterion.

That being said, a longer group stage may work well. TBH, anything that avoids a Swiss-style format is a good thing, and the details mostly determine how many matches everyone plays before people start being eliminated.

What about a league format, playing longer matches against everyone in your division, with promotion & relegation?
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
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#8 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-January-03, 09:33

What do people think of using a daylong-style tournament for the qualifying round, rather than splitting into groups? We can increase the length of it to multiple days to be more accomodating of people's schedules.

#9 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2017-January-03, 09:37

View Postgordontd, on 2017-January-03, 07:16, said:

What about a league format, playing longer matches against everyone in your division, with promotion & relegation?

I anticipate dropping in for about every other BBF challenge. I wouldn't play in a league format.
It's also not welcoming to newcomers.
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
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#10 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2017-January-03, 10:32

View Postbarmar, on 2017-January-03, 09:33, said:

What do people think of using a daylong-style tournament for the qualifying round, rather than splitting into groups? We can increase the length of it to multiple days to be more accomodating of people's schedules.


Dont care for it. The attraction of challenges is playing whenever I want.
Winner - BBO Challenge bracket #6 - February, 2017.
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#11 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2017-January-03, 13:30

View Postbarmar, on 2017-January-03, 09:33, said:

What do people think of using a daylong-style tournament for the qualifying round, rather than splitting into groups? We can increase the length of it to multiple days to be more accomodating of people's schedules.

I think that's a great idea.

Phil - this seems to make it easier to play when you want, not the opposite. You can drop in and out of a daylong tournament just like a challenge.
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#12 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-January-03, 14:03

View Postsmerriman, on 2017-January-03, 13:30, said:

Phil - this seems to make it easier to play when you want, not the opposite. You can drop in and out of a daylong tournament just like a challenge.

Right. And as I said, we can extend it to multiple days. So we could have a "weeklong" tourney, with something like 24 or 48 boards.

#13 User is offline   Mkgnao 

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Posted 2017-January-03, 14:26

View Postbarmar, on 2017-January-03, 09:33, said:

What do people think of using a daylong-style tournament for the qualifying round, rather than splitting into groups? We can increase the length of it to multiple days to be more accomodating of people's schedules.


I like this, as long as we keep on rotating the original and new format(s) to keep things spicy, if we include the daylong-style tournament to include the entire field in ideally 1 group or perhaps the old multiple groups format. My idea (and perhaps it's exactly the same as you're intending, I'm not sure) is to let all contestants play the same 100 boards. The best 16 go on the next stage. This works like a charm for creating reasonable IMP and MP results and prevents the randomness of BAM smerriman was afraid of earlier in this thread.

On the IMPs/MPs discussion: I'm strongly in favor of giving MPs (BAM) a chance. I think the 5:1 challenge event ratio (IMPs:MPs) is a bit ludicrous and an example of the tyranny of the majority. (60-70% voted for IMPs in each poll, so IMPs won every time until this poll.) We all know GIB isn't able to bid intelligently. He's hardly able to signal at all, but at least we are all more or less able to count. That's why I support a format driven by skill in card play (MPs) than a format consisting of throwing random darts at a board aka bidding with GIB (IMPs).
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#14 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2017-January-03, 14:46

View Postsmerriman, on 2017-January-03, 13:30, said:

I think that's a great idea.

Phil - this seems to make it easier to play when you want, not the opposite. You can drop in and out of a daylong tournament just like a challenge.


Sure I can, but I have to play on a chosen day. With challenges, I can play as frequently as I want over the course of a few days.

By the way, can we get BBO to allow us to play multiple quarters prior to our opponent completing a given segment? This would also move things along.
Winner - BBO Challenge bracket #6 - February, 2017.
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#15 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2017-January-03, 14:54

View PostPhil, on 2017-January-03, 14:46, said:

Sure I can, but I have to play on a chosen day.

You missed the bit about extending it to run over a longer period :)
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#16 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2017-January-03, 15:03

View Postsmerriman, on 2017-January-03, 14:54, said:

You missed the bit about extending it to run over a longer period :)


Yes, I took "daylong" literally.
Winner - BBO Challenge bracket #6 - February, 2017.
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#17 User is offline   frank0 

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Posted 2017-January-03, 21:46

Summary of discussion so far:

MP, non-best hand

Consider larger group if we're going to play the same format

Consider different format (suggested by gordontd or barmar)



My personal thought: I think if BBO can organize some challenge tournament of the format (suggested by gordontd or barmar), it will be much more efficient and can eventually replace BBF challenge event. Right now there are a few multi-day tournaments, but still quite short for a large field (still 800+ people last day).
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#18 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2017-January-04, 00:34

Before looking to change the tournament format, it is probably worth identifying the problem you are trying to solve. The round-robin format has received extremely strong support in the past two polls in addition to this one, so it's not clear what its perceived deficiencies are.
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#19 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-January-04, 08:34

View Postsfi, on 2017-January-04, 00:34, said:

Before looking to change the tournament format, it is probably worth identifying the problem you are trying to solve. The round-robin format has received extremely strong support in the past two polls in addition to this one, so it's not clear what its perceived deficiencies are.

I'm addressing two issues:

1. The players are split into groups, instead of everyone competing together for a place in the KO.

2. Waiting around for your opponents to accept and play the challenges.

#20 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2017-January-04, 08:38

View Postbarmar, on 2017-January-04, 08:34, said:

I'm addressing two issues:

1. The players are split into groups, instead of everyone competing together for a place in the KO.

2. Waiting around for your opponents to accept and play the challenges.


#2 can be mitigated by a) BBO altering the (questionable?) rule that you cant start playing your own challenge or b) adding each other as a friend.
Winner - BBO Challenge bracket #6 - February, 2017.
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