[msjennifer]

I have no idea of your gadgets.conventions etc but I certainly can comment that the redouble was not a good bid for this hand.WHAT DOES A DOUBLE OF 2 Spades ,(known to be preemptive) mean in your system.? I feel it should show 1444 hand since most players play a one level bid forcing for one round and North did not make any such but redoubled.Personally, I think you have to think aforehand of this sequence as both 1C/D opening can be a 3 carded one (unless you open 1C on two cards).

[kenberg]

msjennifer, on 2016-December-18, 02:11, said:

I have no idea of your gadgets.conventions etc but I certainly can comment that the redouble was not a good bid for this hand.WHAT DOES A DOUBLE OF 2 Spades ,(known to be preemptive) mean in your system.? I feel it should show 1444 hand since most players play a one level bid forcing for one round and North did not make any such but redoubled.Personally, I think you have to think aforehand of this sequence as both 1C/D opening can be a 3 carded one (unless you open 1C on two cards).

Let me check. I see that you are saying the XX was not so good. But then you ask about a double of 2S. I take it you are referring to X after the XX and the 2S, and then X by N after I (South) and West pass. That's the suggestion, right? Certainly possible. As long as it isn't passed out. This particular hand is very favorable for defending 2SX, at least if we find the optimal defense. LOTT to the contrary, there are 10+9=19 total trump and 6+11=17 total tricks. But generally I am not in favor of defending 2SX here. I assume you aren't either. Anyway I, as S, am not leaving a double of 2S in .But if I had four spades? Hmm. But we do beat it.

So with a second round double, after the first round XX, we might well find 5C. Maybe we should have anyway, I was allowed to bid clubs over the 3H. I though about it.

This has been, for me at least, an interesting discussion. I have become convinced that if history repeats itself, except I am N, I will bid 1H. I think I would have done so, but easy to say now.

[msjennifer]

kenberg, on 2016-December-18, 15:00, said:

Let me check. I see that you are saying the XX was not so good. But then you ask about a double of 2S. I take it you are referring to X after the XX and the 2S, and then X by N after I (South) and West pass. That's the suggestion, right? Certainly possible. As long as it isn't passed out. This particular hand is very favorable for defending 2SX, at least if we find the optimal defense. LOTT to the contrary, there are 10+9=19 total trump and 6+11=17 total tricks. But generally I am not in favor of defending 2SX here. I assume you aren't either. Anyway I, as S, am not leaving a double of 2S in .But if I had four spades? Hmm. But we do beat it.

So with a second round double, after the first round XX, we might well find 5C. Maybe we should have anyway, I was allowed to bid clubs over the 3H. I though about it.

This has been, for me at least, an interesting discussion. I have become convinced that if history repeats itself, except I am N, I will bid 1H. I think I would have done so, but easy to say now.

Yes Sir,you got me right .That is exactly what I meant.I totally agree with all that you have said.Thanks.

[GrahamJson]

There are some strange ideas going on here. A redouble says "I have a good defensive hand, maybe we can get a good penalty here." After this all further doubles should be for penalties. Hence the idea that you can now double 2S for TO is silly. What would you bid with a 4441 hand with good spades? A corollary to this is that perhaps any pass should be considered forcing (unless maybe if opener makes a weak rebid).

Of course this is largely academic as the north hand is not a redouble but a 1D or 1H bid, depending on your methods. (With a less unbalanced hand 2NT, showing a good raise to 3 comes into the picture.)

[wanoff]

I know it's a bit old fashioned but for me 1c is natural and now I'd bid an inverted 2c.
1nt is 6-9 balanced, 2nt preemptive and 3c 'mixed'.

[kenberg]

GrahamJson, on 2016-December-19, 03:11, said:

There are some strange ideas going on here. A redouble says "I have a good defensive hand, maybe we can get a good penalty here." After this all further doubles should be for penalties. Hence the idea that you can now double 2S for TO is silly. What would you bid with a 4441 hand with good spades? A corollary to this is that perhaps any pass should be considered forcing (unless maybe if opener makes a weak rebid).

Of course this is largely academic as the north hand is not a redouble but a 1D or 1H bid, depending on your methods. (With a less unbalanced hand 2NT, showing a good raise to 3 comes into the picture.)

I imagine you are right, but often that is not the way it goes. This was from yesterday.


P P 1D X
XX 1H P P
X

This double could be for penaltied but it seemed unlikely and it was not intended as penalties. Of course there was nothing to say that I, the 1D opener, might not have four hearts and then I can do as I think best. I think if a person cannot stand having partner pass a double, then he probably shouldn't double. So it seems to me this could be a hand that can stand a penalty pass, but really is just competing.

Now weird things can happen. For reasons I cannot explain, although it was late and I ahs had some wine, I saw the auction as

P P 1D X
XX 1H P 2H
X

I still didn't think I should pass with my Qx in hearts so I bid 3D on my AKxxx. Probably those who actually saw the auction correctly were wondering what on Earth I was doing, but they went on to 3H off 1.

I do agree that after XX further doubles have a penalty flavor to them.

[kenberg]

wanoff, on 2016-December-19, 04:35, said:

I know it's a bit old fashioned but for me 1c is natural and now I'd bid an inverted 2c.
1nt is 6-9 balanced, 2nt preemptive and 3c 'mixed'.

After a double? And on four cards? I don't think 1C-X-2C inverted is old fashioned. It might or might not be a good approach but I think it is an unusual approach.

[GrahamJson]

kenberg, on 2016-December-19, 08:46, said:

I imagine you are right, but often that is not the way it goes. This was from yesterday.


P P 1D X
XX 1H P P
X

This double could be for penaltied but it seemed unlikely and it was not intended as penalties. Of course there was nothing to say that I, the 1D opener, might not have four hearts and then I can do as I think best. I think if a person cannot stand having partner pass a double, then he probably shouldn't double. So it seems to me this could be a hand that can stand a penalty pass, but really is just competing.

Now weird things can happen. For reasons I cannot explain, although it was late and I ahs had some wine, I saw the auction as

P P 1D X
XX 1H P 2H
X

I still didn't think I should pass with my Qx in hearts so I bid 3D on my AKxxx. Probably those who actually saw the auction correctly were wondering what on Earth I was doing, but they went on to 3H off 1.

I do agree that after XX further doubles have a penalty flavor to them.

You don't give partner's hand but it sounds like he didn't have his double. After his redouble he could (should?) have passed 2H unless he had excellent trumps. As the bidding went your Qx looks like a great holding on which to pass the double. I'm guessing that your p doubled on Hxx or similar, which I think is wrong.

[msjennifer]

GrahamJson, on 2016-December-19, 03:11, said:

There are some strange ideas going on here. A redouble says "I have a good defensive hand, maybe we can get a good penalty here." After this all further doubles should be for penalties. Hence the idea that you can now double 2S for TO is silly. What would you bid with a 4441 hand with good spades? A corollary to this is that perhaps any pass should be considered forcing (unless maybe if opener makes a weak rebid).

Of course this is largely academic as the north hand is not a redouble but a 1D or 1H bid, depending on your methods. (With a less unbalanced hand 2NT, showing a good raise to 3 comes into the picture.)

After a x by West,who has suggested fit for either major,certainly Norths xx suggests a good defence for opponents contract OR An excellent fit for openers suit with ability to play at least to three level in openers suit.If East bids something opener with a normal 13 plus hand has to pass and if he bids something it shows a weak distributional hand unsuitable for defense.Unless East has psyched he certainly has length in spades and that is why he preempted.If South passes it shows a normal hand.North can not see a defense to 2S with his given hand and having xx earlier has an easy bid of 3C.This is how we play it and it may be " silly " in someone's opinion.I have seen players playing the 2Sx as a cooperative double.We don't play it that way.Bidding 3C is good enough which shows the hand appropriately and after this there is every possibility of reaching game with the hand which South holds.Additionally, on the normal hand South doubles 2S if he holds either Kxx or Axx of spade (as the way we play it) This makes it a bit easier for the responder to decide the action which he intends to take.

[GrahamJson]

msjennifer, on 2016-December-19, 12:28, said:

After a x by West,who has suggested fit for either major,certainly Norths xx suggests a good defence for opponents contract OR An excellent fit for openers suit with ability to play at least to three level in openers suit.If East bids something opener with a normal 13 plus hand has to pass and if he bids something it shows a weak distributional hand unsuitable for defense.Unless East has psyched he certainly has length in spades and that is why he preempted.If South passes it shows a normal hand.North can not see a defense to 2S with his given hand and having xx earlier has an easy bid of 3C.This is how we play it and it may be " silly " in someone's opinion.I have seen players playing the 2Sx as a cooperative double.We don't play it that way.Bidding 3C is good enough which shows the hand appropriately and after this there is every possibility of reaching game with the hand which South holds.Additionally, on the normal hand South doubles 2S if he holds either Kxx or Axx of spade (as the way we play it) This makes it a bit easier for the responder to decide the action which he intends to take.

Sorry, but 2NT shows an excellent fit, not a redouble. Otherwise how does opener know how to proceed if the oppo get their bidding boots on. A redouble should always show a defensive hand.

[neilkaz]

Oooo oooo! Another hand where the take out double was XX'ed and things didn't work out so well .

[PhantomSac]

GrahamJson, on 2016-December-19, 03:11, said:

There are some strange ideas going on here. A redouble says "I have a good defensive hand, maybe we can get a good penalty here." After this all further doubles should be for penalties. Hence the idea that you can now double 2S for TO is silly. What would you bid with a 4441 hand with good spades? A corollary to this is that perhaps any pass should be considered forcing (unless maybe if opener makes a weak rebid).

Of course this is largely academic as the north hand is not a redouble but a 1D or 1H bid, depending on your methods. (With a less unbalanced hand 2NT, showing a good raise to 3 comes into the picture.)

It is totally normal after a jump that doubles are takeout.

If they bid 3s do you still think X would be penalty? Think about it and you will realize that would be unplayable (and in general when you are not in a force [redouble does not and cannot create a force to all leves] you cannot afford to play pen Xs).

[GrahamJson]

Hmm. I don't see why a double wouldn't be for penalties after a jump, even to the three level. Perhaps especially at the three level. Sometimes oppo makes bad bids, it doesn't make sense to base your bidding methods on the assumption that oppo are always right.

[jogs]

GrahamJson, on 2016-December-19, 03:11, said:

There are some strange ideas going on here. A redouble says "I have a good defensive hand, maybe we can get a good penalty here." After this all further doubles should be for penalties. Hence the idea that you can now double 2S for TO is silly. What would you bid with a 4441 hand with good spades? A corollary to this is that perhaps any pass should be considered forcing (unless maybe if opener makes a weak rebid).

This is wrong way thinking. You are warning the opponent with the bigger hand not to raise based solely on points. With a good defensive hand and a misfit, pass. Allow opponents to overbid. Then double them at higher levels.

[kenberg]

I need to think some about all of this. Early on I mentioned that I thought the XX situation after 1M-X is pretty clear cut, but not so much so after 1m-X. I have found this ongoing discussion interesting, I hope others have.

[sfi]

Over the past couple of years my regular partnerships have switched to having a takeout double available after all strength-showing doubles & redoubles. This includes:
1C - (X) - XX
(1NT) - X
1NT - (2D = artificial) - X

and so on.

It makes constructive bidding much better. Since your side has already shown values and partner is on the lookout to make a takeout double, you don't often lose the ability to penalise them anyway.

[Vampyr]

sfi, on 2016-December-19, 20:36, said:

Over the past couple of years my regular partnerships have switched to having a takeout double available after all strength-showing doubles & redoubles. This includes:
1C - (X) - XX
(1NT) - X
1NT - (2D = artificial) - X

and so on.

It makes constructive bidding much better. Since your side has already shown values and partner is on the lookout to make a takeout double, you don't often lose the ability to penalise them anyway.

I prefer the first double after these starts to be takeout also. A problem does arise, however, when both partners have a penalty double. This is rare though.

[sfi]

Vampyr, on 2016-December-20, 10:10, said:

I prefer the first double after these starts to be takeout also. A problem does arise, however, when both partners have a penalty double. This is rare though.

True, the time when they can get off is when they are actually in the most trouble. It's worth the person in the balancing seat being aware of this and doubling if they can handle the later auction anyway. For instance, they might be able to bid NT with a stopper.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 go after your own contract, unless any bid except XX denies opening bid strength,
start to describe your hand.

#2 they are red, ..., partner made a forcing pass, I am trying to go for gold, ... pass,
if this is to reach for me, 4S ... a splinter.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: Just read the comment, that the FP maybe off after a jump, which is certainly true,
the XX should generare FP only up to a given limit, usually up to 2NT.
Luckily those seq. dont come up often.

[jogs]

There are no clear-cut best actions for your partner. But redouble and 3♥ bids are acceptable.
He should have pulled your 3NT bid. It is obvious you do not have a double stop in spades.
You did pass 2♠. He should have pulled 3NT to 4♣. If you rebid 4NT then he can pass.