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Beginner Question

#1 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2016-December-13, 15:17

uncontested 1S 1N 3H 4m

what is 4m

Thanks

Eagles
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#2 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2016-December-13, 15:37

hmmm, edited for further thought
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#3 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2016-December-13, 15:41

"It depends." If you believe that "there are no new suits at the 4 level", which is a good meta-agreement (make sure to note the exceptions), this is a cue for hearts (I am assuming you play that 3 sets a game force). If you believe that there has to be a place to put x xx QJTxxxxx xx (assuming you don't pass 1 hoping to get out in 2, or 3 at the worst), then this is the way to bid it. But you'll be stuck for a forcing bid with the 2=5=4=2 12-count.

You'll sense a bias in my response. I wish I could convince my partners that my bias is right. Sometimes strong club systems have an advantage (but when I hold this hand it goes 1-(2)-2-(4) and I haven't shown *either suit* yet...)
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#4 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2016-December-13, 16:02

cuebid is better, but natural is not illogical.

one which confuses most people: what's the difference between 3S and 4S (over 3H, same auction)?
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#5 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2016-December-13, 16:17

ok, so say the non-illogical natural meaning, how do you set hearts and make a slam try?
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#6 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2016-December-13, 16:20

well you don't. you just have to raise to 4. hence cuebid is better. but of course you lose something. if you have x xxx ax qjxxxxx you'd like to offer clubs without committing and passing 4H.
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#7 User is offline   wanoff 

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Posted 2016-December-13, 17:47

View Postwank, on 2016-December-13, 16:02, said:

cuebid is better, but natural is not illogical.

one which confuses most people: what's the difference between 3S and 4S (over 3H, same auction)?


It's probably no more confusing than 4m.
If you chose 4m to be a cue then you might also play 3s as a cue. Or you could play it as showing 3 hearts. Alternativly you might want it to show 2 spades and open to 3nt.
Then 4s would be 2 spades and not open to 3nt.
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#8 User is offline   SteveMoe 

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Posted 2016-December-15, 20:53

4 agrees and shows a control in . Senseless to be natural or offer to play after partner's J/S showing both Majors. More senseless to be weak with length (not right to show a new suit a the 4-level). With bad non-fitting hands, 3 is always available as a false preference.
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#9 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2016-December-18, 11:06

It's not "senseless" to be natural, it's actually quite handy, particularly if you aren't playing anything artificial on this auction.

It depends on your style of 2/1
If you play an Acol-type system where 1NT is strictly limited to less than 9, you might as well play it as natural because you can't really have a slam on (partner didn't open 2C or an Acol 2, and you responded 1NT) while you can have a lot of clubs and a very weak hand.

If you play a more American system wereh the 1NT bid is forcing and can be up to a 12 count, then it's probably more useful to play it as a cue because it's more likely you've got a good 4H bid than a natural 4m bid.
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#10 User is offline   Mkgnao 

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Posted 2016-December-19, 12:19

View Postwank, on 2016-December-13, 16:02, said:

cuebid is better, but natural is not illogical.

one which confuses most people: what's the difference between 3S and 4S (over 3H, same auction)?


Well, I play 1NT as NF and up to 11 and never with fit. Not playing Gazzilli, with my regular partners 3H shows a GF hand with 4+H so I assume 1S-1NT; 3H-3S would show a doubleton S and 3-H (4m being cues for H) and 1S-1NT; 3H-4S would show a splinter for hearts (though it is terribly high and you bypass the 'safe' 4 level).
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#11 User is offline   SteveMoe 

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Posted 2016-December-19, 22:35

View PostFrancesHinden, on 2016-December-18, 11:06, said:

It's not "senseless" to be natural, it's actually quite handy, particularly if you aren't playing anything artificial on this auction.


Frances, I plead guilty for use of stronger words than suitable here. Perhaps sub-optimal is a better choice.
Playing 4m as natural after partner has shown a very strong hand with 9+ cards in the Majors fails if it is an attempt to play 4m. So a very weak hand with very long m shoudl pass or give a false preference to at the 3-level. This scores better at MP and BAM, and might even earn an IMP at IMPs. Not stopping in 4m only loses in the rare circumstance where 3M/OM, 4M/OM and 5m cannot be made. That's a pretty steep parlay. Nay, the value (expected yield) for having this be a cue bid for OM is too great compared to the yield from successfully stopping in 4m. I do agree that 4m then 6m is appealing, but that hand would hardly start with a (forcing) 1NT response.

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#12 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2016-December-20, 02:01

View PostSteveMoe, on 2016-December-19, 22:35, said:

Frances, I plead guilty for use of stronger words than suitable here. Perhaps sub-optimal is a better choice.
Playing 4m as natural after partner has shown a very strong hand with 9+ cards in the Majors fails if it is an attempt to play 4m. So a very weak hand with very long m shoudl pass or give a false preference to at the 3-level.


How about 4m as natural and forcing, looking for the best game? I've certainly had deals where 5m was the only making game after this start.
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#13 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2016-December-20, 08:54

Part of the problem is the nature of a vague 3!h. If it can be 5-4, then a minor suit fit is still possible. If 55, less so, and 4m has more utility as a cue.
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#14 User is offline   SteveMoe 

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Posted 2016-December-20, 21:08

View PostStephen Tu, on 2016-December-20, 02:01, said:

How about 4m as natural and forcing, looking for the best game? I've certainly had deals where 5m was the only making game after this start.


Yes, i suppose the 4m bid could be flexible enough to do that, but really that's a narrow window (see Phil's point). If i have a hand that can make game only in then we both know what bid I should use. If I need to find a magic 5-3 fit in a balanced hand to make 3 and 3N, 4M don't make, I'll take my lumps. The upside is the ability to show control(s) for M.
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#15 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2016-December-22, 05:11

I prefer cue for hearts, it is simple.

This meaning does still make some sense, if the 4m bid comes from a passed
hand, the position does not affect the meaning.


The cog meaning is certainly handy, but:
Given the problem, that 3H may be 5+/4+, and that the responding hand may or
may or may not have secondary support for openers suit, it is not clear, how
opener is supposed to make a sensible decison, that it is wise to bypass 4M,
this is a pure guessing game, unless you add some add. properties to the hands,
that can bid 4m.

And option for showing some sort of SI: You could say, that bidding 3S is a heart
raise and 4H is secondary spade support, ... if you are able to remember.
This may free up 4m to be natural.
No idea, if this works.

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#16 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2016-December-25, 10:50

Forcing and natural... as long as my next call is Pass, a mere preference to one of partner's majors, a non jump in NT or a non jump in my minor. All other rebids show a cue for hearts.

Rik
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#17 User is offline   Kaitlyn S 

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Posted 2016-December-25, 11:02

Several years ago, the Bridge World magazine had a Master Solvers' club problem where the auction was 1S (P) 1NT (3H) 4D P ?

where the hand was a huge fit in diamonds with the CA.

A year or so later they had the problem 1S (P) 1NT (3H) 4D (P) 5C (P) ?

Of the 32 experts, 9 of them managed to play in 5C with a huge club fit playing with themselves (they thought 5C was a control bid the first time and natural the second time.)

So it's good to have an agreement but I don't think that either interpretation is "right".
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