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Why play in a 9 card fit if I can also play in a 7 card fit

#1 User is offline   m1cha 

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Posted 2016-December-09, 20:05

I had this yesterday in the Survivor tournament.

I didn't want to risk 3NT and bid 4 instead showing "twice rebiddable , 4+, 15 - 22 tp", quite my hand. Robot partner somehow bid 4 labeled "twice rebiddable , 10+ total points". This is an incredibly bad bid because
- the hand has only 5 cards, not 6;
- the bid conceals our 6-3 fit in ;
- the robot should realize that I cannot possibly have more that 3 cards; and finally
- the hand does not have 10+ total points.
For all these reasons I raised to 5 going down several times for 2.94 % where I could have played 4+1 with the field for 77.94 % or, who knows, even 5= for 98.53 %.
(BTW: One player reached 5 by bidding 3 which promises "rebiddable ".)

{comments}

[Sorry for the graph, I don't know how to increase the size.]
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#2 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2016-December-09, 20:49

Well I can tell you why Gib went off the deepend.
your 2 bid showed 22 pts, so Gib thinks there is slam. Obviously, 2 is distribution not hcp and Gib can't take a joke.
Sarcasm is a state of mind
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#3 User is offline   m1cha 

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Posted 2016-December-09, 21:57

View Poststeve2005, on 2016-December-09, 20:49, said:

Well I can tell you why Gib went off the deepend.
your 2 bid showed 22 pts, so Gib thinks there is slam. Obviously, 2 is distribution not hcp and Gib can't take a joke.

I don't believe it did (think there is slam). Maybe it is difficult to see in the small graph but 2 promises "21- HCP, 15 - 22 total points". This is the usual upper limit which just means I didn't open 2. It's not enough for a slam even if GIB thought it had 10 tp (which it hasn't), and I didn't even promise enough for the 5 level.
Edit: Oh, I see. Don't be confused by the "+" signs between the words in the graph. I don't know how they got there.
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#4 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2016-December-09, 22:06

[hv=handviewerlink]400|300[/hv]


Not sure how the pluses got there either, but here's a tidied version:


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#5 User is offline   m1cha 

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Posted 2016-December-10, 00:11

Thanks, smerriman. Can you please tell me how to get these graphs into a post? So far I found only two ways:
- Copy/paste as "media", creating the problems above.
- With the hand editor manually, card by card, bid by bid.
How's the proper way to do it?


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#6 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2016-December-10, 00:25

View Postm1cha, on 2016-December-10, 00:11, said:

Thanks, smerriman. Can you please tell me how to get these graphs into a post? So far I found only two ways:
- Copy/paste as "media", creating the problems above.
- With the hand editor manually, card by card, bid by bid.
How's the proper way to do it?

I go to Hands and results in BBO -> Export deal -> Handviewer link -> Show -> Open in new window -> copy URL -> paste into format mentioned at start of my last post.
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#7 User is offline   m1cha 

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Posted 2016-December-10, 19:16

View Postsmerriman, on 2016-December-10, 00:25, said:

I go to Hands and results in BBO -> Export deal -> Handviewer link -> Show -> Open in new window -> copy URL -> paste into format mentioned at start of my last post.

Thanks again. I see, so far I had ignored the "Other styles" menu in the editor. Instead of the handviewer item there I tried to use the "media" button which, well, sort of works. :)
With your hint I also found out how to create a spoiler.
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#8 User is offline   lycier 

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Posted 2016-December-11, 02:46

View Poststeve2005, on 2016-December-09, 20:49, said:

Well I can tell you why Gib went off the deepend.
your 2 bid showed 22 pts, so Gib thinks there is slam. Obviously, 2 is distribution not hcp and Gib can't take a joke.


Well I am surprised at your paradox.
Well I can also tell you why Gibs often went off the deepend.
M1cha's 2 bid showed 15-22 TPs, M1cha didn't make a mistake I think since there is 17 TPs in this hand with 4-6 double suits. Even so, Gib never think there is a slam.
Why did Gib N rebid 3 - 4 twice ? In fact this is a very very simple thing - Gibs really didn't understand the meanings of reverse bid and Gibs really have had no ability to describe two suits hands.

Now it is time to see 2 definition - 2 says " 3+,4+,21-hcp, 15-22TPs".
This is a good evidence.
1- Obviously this is a wrong definition, it should say " 5+,4,21-hcp, 15-22TPs".
2- Obviously there are not some bidding rules in such sorts of hands.

Any ideas?
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#9 User is offline   m1cha 

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Posted 2016-December-11, 09:37

View Postlycier, on 2016-December-11, 02:46, said:

Why did Gib N rebid 3 - 4 twice ? In fact this is a very very simple thing - Gibs really didn't understand the meanings of reverse bid and Gibs really have had no ability to describe two suits hands.

Now it is time to see 2 definition - 2 says " 3+,4+,21-hcp, 15-22TPs".
This is a good evidence.
1- Obviously this is a wrong definition, it should say " 5+,4,21-hcp, 15-22TPs".
2- Obviously there are not some bidding rules in such sorts of hands.

GIB can handle reverse hands correctly in the uncontested auction but here opponents intervended showing , so the situation is different. Declarer can have two different hand types for bidding 2:
- the classical reverse hand with 5+, 4+ or
- a strong balanced hand with 3+, 4 and 18 - 19 HCP (too strong to open 1NT) without a stopper
because with the second type declarer cannot bid 2NT. I believe the bidding and also the labels so far are correct.

For responder to offer now with a 4-card suit (as shown on the label) seems strange to me. A 4-4 fit is extremely rare, only when declarer has a 4045 distribution. 3 with 4 cards in should be an emergency bid. Here it's okay because responder has 5 s though I believe bidding NT is better with this hand. 3NT makes.

Anyway, the real problem is in the next round. At that time declarer's 2-suiter had been shown, even as 6-4. The 6-3 fit in is known, and rebidding seems just crazy. It may be some kind of Oh-partner-we-missed-3NT-and-4NT-would-be-Blackwood-and-I-don't-know-at-which-level-we-can-play-clubs, but that doesn't make it any better.
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#10 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2016-December-12, 04:47

View Postm1cha, on 2016-December-11, 09:37, said:

[/size]
GIB can handle reverse hands correctly in the uncontested auction but here opponents intervended showing , so the situation is different. Declarer can have two different hand types for bidding 2:
- the classical reverse hand with 5+, 4+ or
- a strong balanced hand with 3+, 4 and 18 - 19 HCP (too strong to open 1NT) without a stopper
because with the second type declarer cannot bid 2NT. I believe the bidding and also the labels so far are correct.

I totally disagree with this. 2 has to show long clubs. The balanced hand 4234 18-19 or whatever can takeout double when 2h gets passed back on the third round of bidding.

Agree bidding 4d is absurd on how the actual auction progressed.
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#11 User is offline   m1cha 

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Posted 2016-December-12, 08:41

View PostStephen Tu, on 2016-December-12, 04:47, said:

I totally disagree with this. 2 has to show long clubs. The balanced hand 4234 18-19 or whatever can takeout double when 2h gets passed back on the third round of bidding.

I agree. At the bridge table. But GIB doesn't seem to play it this way (if the label is correct). And with GIB you never know what kind of double you will get in the next round. ;)
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