BBO Discussion Forums: Freeing up 3N over 1N-2C; 2D and 1N-[2M-1]; 2M - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Freeing up 3N over 1N-2C; 2D and 1N-[2M-1]; 2M A Puppet 2N idea

#1 User is offline   nullve 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,228
  • Joined: 2014-April-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norway
  • Interests:partscores

Posted 2016-December-09, 06:57

Idea: Use a Puppet Stayman-like 2N response to 1N

* with 5 M in a (semi)balanced hand to free up Responder's 3N rebid over 1N-[2M-1](Jacoby xfer); 2M;
* with 4S4H to free up 3N over 1N-2(Stayman); 21 ;
* to find the 5-3 OM fit when Opener has 2M5OM and Responder has GF values and 5M3OM(32).

1 3N over 1N-2; 2-3N shows 4S4H the way many play (regular) Puppet 2N/, because they would have used Puppet 2N/3 with 4M3-OM and they wouldn't have used Stayman at all with 3-S3-H. [Edit: I'm being a bit stupid here, because the reason they don't use Puppet with 4S4H is right-siding issues after e.g. 1N-3(Puppet); 3-3 = 4 S (likely wrong-siding 4 if Responder has 4S4H).]

What I've come up with so far:

1N-2N = GF with a (semi)balanced hand suitable for either Puppet Stayman (2N or 3) or 1N-2[M-1]; 2M-3N playing normal methods / ?

1N-2N; ?:

Either

a) (too much information leakage?)

3 = 4-S4-H, likely ruffing value
...3M-1 = 4+M3-OM
......3M = 3M, likely ruffing value
.........3N = 4 M, NF
............P = 3 M
............4M = 4 M
.........(...)
.........4M = 5 M, to play
.........(...)
......3N = 2 M
......4M-1 = 4 M, likely ruffing value, wants p to declare 4M
......4M = 4 M, likely ruffing value, wants to declare 4M
...3 = 3-S3-H / ?
...3N = 4S4H, NF
......4M-2 = wants p to play 4M
......4M = wants to declare 4M
...(...)
3M-1 = 5 M
...3M = 2M5OM
......3N = 2 OM or no likely ruffing value
......4OM = to play
......others: undefined
...(...)
...3N = to play
...(...)
...4M-1 = wants p to play 4M
...4M = wants to declare 4M
...(...)
3N = 4-S4-H, no likely ruffing value
ohters: undefined

or

b) (less information leakage, changes from a) highlighted in blue)

3 = 4-S4-H, likely ruffing value / [meaning shared with 3N:] 4-S4-H, no likely ruffing value
...3M-1 = 4+M3-OM
......3M = 3M, likely ruffing value / [meaning shared with 4M:] 4 M, likely ruffing value, wants to declare 4M
.........3N = 4 M, NF
............P = 3 M
............4M = 4 M
.........(...)
.........4M = 5 M, to play
.........(...)
......3N = 2 M, or 3 M and no likely ruffing value
......4M-1 = 4 M, likely ruffing value, wants p to declare 4M
......4M = [meaning shared with 3M:] 4 M, likely ruffing value, wants to declare 4M
...3 = 3-S3-H / ?
...3N = 4S4H, NF
......4M-2 = wants p to play 4M
......4M = to play
...(...)
3M-1 = 5 M
...3M = 2M5OM
......3N = 2 OM or no likely ruffing value
......4OM = to play
......others: undefined
...(...)
...3N = to play
...(...)
...4M-1 = wants p to declare 4M
...4M = wants to declare 4M
...(...)
3N = [meaning shared with 3:] 4-S4-H, no likely ruffing value
ohters: undefined.

The added idea here is that Opener will try to randomise (in a real or fake way, subject to full disclosure) between

* 3 and 3N over 1N-2N, with no likely ruffing value
* 3M and 4M over 1N-2N; 3-[3M-1], with 4 M, a likely ruffing value and willingness to declare 4M,

to keep opps as much in the dark about his M length as possible after 1N-2N; 3-[3M-1]; 3M/3N.
0

#2 User is offline   1eyedjack 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,575
  • Joined: 2004-March-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 2016-December-09, 07:29

Quick question. Having freed up responder's 3N rebid, what are you now going to use it for?
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
0

#3 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,666
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2016-December-09, 09:16

View Post1eyedjack, on 2016-December-09, 07:29, said:

Quick question. Having freed up responder's 3N rebid, what are you now going to use it for?

Freeing it up over a Jacoby transfer would be useful as it would allow a choice of void splinters or 2 ranges of splinter or adding a convenient method for starting a cue auction if you play one of the popular methods that omits this.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
0

#4 User is offline   Siegmund 

  • Alchemist
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,764
  • Joined: 2004-June-15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Beside a little lake in northwestern Montana
  • Interests:Creator of the 'grbbridge' LaTeX typesetting package.

Posted 2016-December-09, 23:16

It seems to me that there are much easier ways to free up the 3NT rebids -- all you need is any one bid below 3NT that is transfer-like. (I like 2nd round transfers after 1NT-2C, not quite the way Martens does them but similarly.)

And, for that matter, than 1NT-2NT is a much more valuable sequence than 1NT-2C-2X-3NT, 1NT-2D-2H-3NT, and 1NT-2H-2S-3NT put together. I hope you're getting more bang for your buck!
0

#5 User is offline   nullve 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,228
  • Joined: 2014-April-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norway
  • Interests:partscores

Posted 2016-December-10, 06:56

View PostSiegmund, on 2016-December-09, 23:16, said:

It seems to me that there are much easier ways to free up the 3NT rebids -- all you need is any one bid below 3NT that is transfer-like. (I like 2nd round transfers after 1NT-2C, not quite the way Martens does them but similarly.)

That's a good point which makes me regret the title of this thread. The idea was not so much to free up the 3N rebids themselves as freeing up bidding space by removing the hand types associated with those bids in an otherwise standard rebid structure. In a structure with 2nd round transfers, maybe the 3 rebids ("transfer to notrump"?) would be affected (if not entirely freed up) instead. Since I certainly didn't want to rule out non-standard rebid structures, I shouldn't have been talking about freeing up 3N rebids at all.

View PostSiegmund, on 2016-December-09, 23:16, said:

And, for that matter, than 1NT-2NT is a much more valuable sequence than 1NT-2C-2X-3NT, 1NT-2D-2H-3NT, and 1NT-2H-2S-3NT put together. I hope you're getting more bang for your buck!

I realise that my first paragraph sounded like the whole purpose of my Puppet 2N variation is to free up those 3N rebids. But it can also be played for the usual reasons, e.g as a low information alternative to regular Stayman.

View Post1eyedjack, on 2016-December-09, 07:29, said:

Quick question. Having freed up responder's 3N rebid, what are you now going to use it for?

I don't have anythng very concrete in mind, but I've been trying to come up with decent relay structures, both over 1N-2; 2x and 1N-[2M-1]; 2M, using all of Responder's rebids starting from 31. Since available bidding space is scarce, it really helps to be able to respond 2N with on more hands than I, at least, have been doing so far, which have just been balanced hands on which Responder might have some interest in 4M.

I like Zelandakh's suggestions in an otherwise standard rebid structure.

1 14.12.16: Ok, here's something semi-concrete:
Spoiler

0

#6 User is offline   straube 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,071
  • Joined: 2009-January-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Vancouver WA USA

Posted 2016-December-10, 11:02

I used 1N-2C, 2M-3N as a splinter short the OM.

http://www.bridgebas...e-nt-structure/

Recommend you take a look at awm's structure. If I'd known about it first, I never would have bothered devising my own.
0

#7 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 942
  • Joined: 2012-April-15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Skövde, Sweden

Posted 2016-December-10, 14:56

View Postnullve, on 2016-December-09, 06:57, said:

Idea: Use a Puppet Stayman-like 2N response to 1N

* with 5 M in a (semi)balanced hand to free up Responder's 3N rebid over 1N-[2M-1](Jacoby xfer); 2M;
* with 4S4H to free up 3N over 1N-2(Stayman); 21 ;
* to find the 5-3 OM fit when Opener has 2M5OM and Responder has GF values and 5M3OM(32).


I like the idea and think there might be something to it, especially if not playing 2C as Stayman but perhaps using it as a puppet to 2D. If I understand correctly you would only bid Stayman in your structure with weak values (intending to pass), invitational values with one/both majors, or game going values looking for slam or the right game (not hands that want to play 4M or 3NT depending on 4-4 major fit). Some thoughts:

* 1NT-2M-1; 2M-3NT could be used as a choice of games hands where opener has to bid 4M with 3+ support. When going through 2NT opener can may choose between 4M or 3NT even if a 5-3 fit is found.
* 1NT-2C; 2D-3NT could be 5-5 majors. Otherwise I do not really see a use for it which wont interfere with 2M responses. Perhaps 4-4 majors quant.
* When responder has 5-3 majors it is possible to play 1NT-2C; 2D-3M as Smolen, but it may be 5-3 instead of 5-4. You could also play that 1NT-2C; 2M-3NT shows 3 card support and 5 cards in the other major, since you would bid Puppet with just a four card suit.

Here's an idea which leaks a bit less information (I think).

1NT-2NT; 3C---
3D = 4S
...3H = Not 4S
......3S = 4-4 majors
......3NT = To play
3H = 5S or no major
...3S = Wants to play 4S if responder has spades
...3NT = Doesn't want to play 4S, but may have 3S.
3S = 5H. Opener bids 3NT or 4H.
3N = 4H, not 4S

A simple idea (but gives more information) could be to play Stayman :)

1NT-2NT; 3C---
3D = Stayman, one or both majors
3H = 5 spades
3S = 5 hearts
3NT = To play

Edit: Swapped 1NT-2NT; 3C-3D/3NT.
0

#8 User is offline   nullve 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,228
  • Joined: 2014-April-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norway
  • Interests:partscores

Posted 2016-December-10, 15:54

View PostKungsgeten, on 2016-December-10, 14:56, said:

If I understand correctly you would only bid Stayman in your structure with weak values (intending to pass), invitational values with one/both majors, or game going values looking for slam or the right game (not hands that want to play 4M or 3NT depending on 4-4 major fit).

That's more or less correct.

View PostKungsgeten, on 2016-December-10, 14:56, said:

* 1NT-2M-1; 2M-3NT could be used as a choice of games hands where opener has to bid 4M with 3+ support. When going through 2NT opener can may choose between 4M or 3NT even if a 5-3 fit is found.

Some pairs even play two kinds of CoG over 1N-[2M-1]; 2M, don't they? Maybe one with 5M(332) and one with 5M4m22, or might they also bid this way with a small singleton?

View PostKungsgeten, on 2016-December-10, 14:56, said:

* 1NT-2C; 2D-3NT could be 5-5 majors. Otherwise I do not really see a use for it which wont interfere with 2M responses.

Yes, looks like the most logical choice in an otherwise standard structure.

View PostKungsgeten, on 2016-December-10, 14:56, said:

* When responder has 5-3 majors it is possible to play 1NT-2C; 2D-3M as Smolen, but it may be 5-3 instead of 5-4. You could also play that 1NT-2C; 2M-3NT shows 3 card support and 5 cards in the other major, since you would bid Puppet with just a four card suit.

Yes.

View PostKungsgeten, on 2016-December-10, 14:56, said:

Here's an idea which leaks a bit less information (I think).

1NT-2NT; 3C---
3D = 4H
...3H = Not 4H
......3S = Puppet to 3NT
......3NT = 4-4 majors
3H = 5S or no major
...3S = Wants to play 4S if responder has spades
...3NT = Doesn't want to play 4S, but may have 3S.
3S = 5H. Opener bids 3NT or 4H.
3N = 4S, not 4H

Yes. Looks like a clear improvement.
0

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users