[Jinksy]

I want to be in 6♥, and probably get to 3N in (what I consider) standard methods, after

1♦ 1♥ /
3N* P

* Effective rebid of 4♦.

After 3N I wouldn't be thrilled about passing with north, but I have a generic agreement with most partners that a 4-level rebid of a second suit after partner has shown a single-suiter is a cue for P's suit.

System o' choice:
1♦* 1♥
3♦** 3♥
3♠*** 4♥
4N**** etc

* 14+, F1
** 18-20, 6+diamonds and 3 hearts
*** Values rather than outright cue
**** RKCB, with the missing controls

[Tramticket]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-October-05, 05:31, said:

Don't like your 2N bid much either ...

No I'm not proud of it.

[m1cha]

Tramticket, on 2016-October-05, 04:23, said:

I now had a choice between showing my club support or my good stop in the fourth suit. I don't think that 2NT was a good choice with a void in partner's suit and communications likely to be difficult.

How about 2♠? Too strong perhaps but how likely is it to go wrong? Sure opener would show 3-card support of ♥ after that?

[Tramticket]

m1cha, on 2016-October-05, 07:26, said:

How about 2♠? Too strong perhaps but how likely is it to go wrong? Sure opener would show 3-card support of ♥ after that?

I didn't feel I had the values for 4th suit forcing (we play it as forcing to game).

[m1cha]

Tramticket, on 2016-October-05, 07:44, said:

I didn't feel I had the values for 4th suit forcing (we play it as forcing to game).

I agree. I just wonder, it may be the smallest lie. If you have a fit (and it looks like you have at least a fit in ♣) your 6 loser hand can be very strong. (And I'm saying this although I don't like shortages in partner's first suit.) If you don't have a fit, you may still be fine because the 2♣ rebid can be very wide-range. Of course, if opener has a 10-HCP hand with 2164, you're running into trouble.

Then perhaps 3♣. The advantage is, if partner faked the 2♣ bid, you have enough for game, so opener can continue with 3♥, 3♦ or 3♠. Unless these are now cue bids, that is.

[ggwhiz]

My partnership takes a different take on continuations after a fake call like a reverse or 2 or 3 clubs.

It's the responsibility of opener to prepare their continuations, not responder. For us, not supporting clubs and bidding 2nt on your actual auction is a serious crime. If the 2♣ bid was for real you may have blown an easy slam out of the water.

[m1cha]

Kaitlyn S, on 2016-October-04, 17:31, said:

apollo1201, on 2016-October-04, 16:06, said:

So on hand a, I end up in 3D while you play 1D provided opps allow you to play there with 20 HCP and D shrotness.

So 2C-2D-3D is non-forcing?

I also play that with two partners. The thing is, as Marty Bergen points out, that 2♣-2♦-3♦ consumes a lot of bidding space, so we try to avoid this sequence and prefer to bid 2♣-2♦-2NT or to open on the one level. Then 2♣-2♦-3♦ is more or less reserved for single-suited hands that don't want to be played in NT. And now, if partner has a 0 - 3 point hand, why bid 4♣ or 3NT as second negative forcing opener to bid 4♦ which will then be passed although partner had no chance yet to show his distribution? So we decided, second negative to 2♣-2♦-3m is PASS, and any bid promises 4+ points.

Of course that means if opener has an 11+ trick single-suiter in a minor, he has to jump to 4m after the 2♦ response. So far this has not happened.

By the way we also play "longer minor" as second negative over 2♣-2♦-2M. That is, with 0 - 3 points and without a fit we bid 3♣ or 3♦ whichever suit is longer. Since it denies a fit, it should be at least a 4-card minor suit and opener may pass this. It can sometimes play better than 3M or 3NT.

[miamijd]

As other posters have indicated, 6H requires a 3-2 H split and no really weird splits in a couple other suits, so it's a good spot.

As to how to get there with standard bidding, I prefer something simpler:

1D 1H
3C(1) 3H/3S(2)
4H 6H

(1) 2NT is also possible, after which it is very easy to find 6H. I think you want to force game, however
(2) 3H would be my choice; you need to show the fifth heart in case partner has 3. You can then correct 3S (asking for a stop) or 3NT (showing a stop) to 4C to show club support, and if partner has <3 hearts and a phony club suit, he'll bid 4D, after which you can retreat to 4NT. 3S as a fourth-suit bid is OK if partner responds 3NT, 4C, or 4H, but if partner bids 4D, you are stuck.

The bid I don't like at responder's second turn is 4C. Too often, the 3C bid turns out to be phony, and if that's the case, the auction will be unmanageable. If opener doesn't bid 4D or 4H at his next turn, there is still time to show clubs later.

[Kaitlyn S]

miamijd, on 2016-October-05, 14:26, said:

you need to show the fifth heart in case partner has 3.

I don't think you do. Opener will show three card support on his next bid. Since you can find a 5-3 fit without bidding hearts, I think it is more valuable to use 3H to show six so you can find your 6-2 fits. Failing to do this is going to force responder with six hearts to either insist on hearts or give up on them in many cases. See this:

1D-1H-3C-3H (showing 5) - 3NT. Does responder pass or bid 4H on: 62, QJ7654, 43, K75?

Bidding 4H is a disaster if opener has: AK, 3, AKQJ65, QT93 with 3NT cold.
Passing 3NT is a disaster if opener has: AK, T2, AK765, AJ63 with 4H likely to make. Partner can hardly raise 3H to 4H if 3H only shows 5 hearts. (Granted, some might have opened 2NT with this hand, but there

However, if 3H shows 6, opener bids 3NT on the first hand and 4H on the second, and responder knows to pass 3NT opposite the first hand.

If you do have a 5-3 heart fit, opener will usually bid hearts on his next call. Because an exception might occur if responder bids 3NT (opener might sit if he thinks there's enough tricks despite the singleton spade, or if 2-3-2-6), if responder really would rather play the 5-3 fit, he should try to find a different call than 3NT. For example:

S-A54, H-QJ963 D-32 C-743 Over 1D-1H-3C, responder really wants to play 4H on a 5-3 and with a single stopper, needs nine runners to make 3NT. Rather than bidding 3NT, or 3H which I think shows 6, responder takes a false preference by bidding 3D, giving the opener a chance to bid hearts with 3. If opener now bids 3NT responder is pretty confident that it's the best spot.

S-KQT6 H-Q9863 D-3 C-743 With spades so solidly stopped, 3NT might be best even if opener has three hearts so responder bids 3NT.

Occasionally you're going to get the 3NT/4H decision wrong when responder has no other call than 3NT and opener has three hearts, but I think the value of finding your 6-2 fits more than makes up for that.

[kenberg]

Both at the table and in these discussions it os not all that unusual to see a hand with a long minor, strong but not strong enough for a 2C opening, such that after 1m-1M there is not suitable response. I have a thought, and I will use this hand to illustrate.

1D-1H-3C-4C

The 3C will sometimes be a fake. When it is a fake, (almost) certainly the hand will have this long diamond hand. I suggest that after the 4C call the bid of 4D means unequivocally that the 3C was a fake, any call other than 4D says unequivocally that the 3C was on real clubs.

A variant, with a different hand for responder:

1D-1S-2H-3H
I assume the 3H to be gf, Leb would have been used otherwise.
Then bidding 4D means the reverse was a fake for length (not for strength of course) while any call other than 4D means the reverse was ion a four card heart suit.

How would that work on the actual hands?
1D-1H-3C-4C-4D-4H

Responder hears the 4D bid ans says "Oh, the 3C was a fake. But I have a fifth heart, time to show it".

I am ot sure how well this would work, but something seems to be needed.

[Kaitlyn S]

kenberg, on 2016-October-05, 16:50, said:

1D-1S-2H-3H
I assume the 3H to be gf, Leb would have been used otherwise.
Then bidding 4D means the reverse was a fake for length (not for strength of course) while any call other than 4D means the reverse was ion a four card heart suit.

Overall, I find your idea playable. However, on the auction 1D-1S-2H-3H, if the opener had long diamonds and made up his 2H bid, that means he had too much for 1D-1H-3D. However, sometimes his "made up" 2H bid is with spade support, and it would be truly sad to bypass 4S when responder raises 4D to 5D. What I'm saying here is that I think opener's 3S would be suggesting that the hearts aren't real, rather than a control bid.

My first (bad) thought was that 3NT might also show fake hearts and suggest a contract, but if responder has 5S & 4H and opener chose to bid hearts rather than clubs as a fake bid, it sounds like the clubs are a bit soft and the opponents know this. While you could bid 3NT to say "I have running diamonds, let's play here if you can stop clubs", it's probably better to use 3NT as either the serious 3NT or frivolous 3NT by partnership agreement looking for a heart slam.

[apollo1201]

Kaitlyn S, on 2016-October-04, 17:31, said:

So 2C-2D-3D is non-forcing?

Yep. I have 2D as the only gf opening. It prevents playing multi and 2-suited 2M opening obviously and having 2 strong openings (2C, 2D) and 3 if you consider 2NT is probably too much.

My dear p and I resumed bridge last year after a 10-yr breakand we took back what we played but things evolved in between. Our next steps is use an ambivalent 2C (strong or gf) but it will require some work...

[nekthen]

1♦ 1♥ seems clear for everyone. Opener has a 4 loser hand, but imho its not requiring a GF yet so I bid a simple
3♦ 3♥ now we are off to the races as pass was possible
4N 5♥
6♥ shame we are missing the Q♥, but yes we want to be there

[m1cha]

apollo1201, on 2016-October-06, 00:57, said:

Yep. I have 2D as the only gf opening. It prevents playing multi and 2-suited 2M opening obviously and having 2 strong openings (2C, 2D) and 3 if you consider 2NT is probably too much.

My dear p and I resumed bridge last year after a 10-yr breakand we took back what we played but things evolved in between. Our next steps is use an ambivalent 2C (strong or gf) but it will require some work...

You may want to try this booklet. It has all you need.
http://www.martyberg....html#Number_38

[miamijd]

Kaitlyn S, on 2016-October-05, 16:03, said:

I don't think you do. Opener will show three card support on his next bid. Since you can find a 5-3 fit without bidding hearts, I think it is more valuable to use 3H to show six so you can find your 6-2 fits. Failing to do this is going to force responder with six hearts to either insist on hearts or give up on them in many cases. See this:

1D-1H-3C-3H (showing 5) - 3NT. Does responder pass or bid 4H on: 62, QJ7654, 43, K75?

Bidding 4H is a disaster if opener has: AK, 3, AKQJ65, QT93 with 3NT cold.
Passing 3NT is a disaster if opener has: AK, T2, AK765, AJ63 with 4H likely to make. Partner can hardly raise 3H to 4H if 3H only shows 5 hearts. (Granted, some might have opened 2NT with this hand, but there

However, if 3H shows 6, opener bids 3NT on the first hand and 4H on the second, and responder knows to pass 3NT opposite the first hand.

If you do have a 5-3 heart fit, opener will usually bid hearts on his next call. Because an exception might occur if responder bids 3NT (opener might sit if he thinks there's enough tricks despite the singleton spade, or if 2-3-2-6), if responder really would rather play the 5-3 fit, he should try to find a different call than 3NT. For example:

S-A54, H-QJ963 D-32 C-743 Over 1D-1H-3C, responder really wants to play 4H on a 5-3 and with a single stopper, needs nine runners to make 3NT. Rather than bidding 3NT, or 3H which I think shows 6, responder takes a false preference by bidding 3D, giving the opener a chance to bid hearts with 3. If opener now bids 3NT responder is pretty confident that it's the best spot.

S-KQT6 H-Q9863 D-3 C-743 With spades so solidly stopped, 3NT might be best even if opener has three hearts so responder bids 3NT.

Occasionally you're going to get the 3NT/4H decision wrong when responder has no other call than 3NT and opener has three hearts, but I think the value of finding your 6-2 fits more than makes up for that.

I think 3H ought to show either (i) 6+ hearts; (ii) 5 really good hearts that can stand a raise on honor small; or (iii) 5 hearts and a hand that has slam ambitions and is good enough to sign off in 4NT later on.

If you want 3H to show 6, then I would recommend a 3S bid at responder's second turn as a temporizing action (though if opener rebids 4D, you will be stuck in an awkward spot). You can always sign off in 4NT later if you can't find a trump suit (you need some agreements on that, so partner doesn't think it's key-card). A 3D temporizing bid, as I think you recommend, is an excellent choice, but only with prior agreement that this bid shows nothing in particular. Otherwise, you will never be able to play clubs (partner will always correct back to diamonds). Since I was assuming "standard," I didn't include that as a possibility.

My main point was that 4C is a poor bid (you really need at least 5 clubs for that). 4C makes the auction unmanageable. If opener now bids 4D or 4H, does that show (A) phony clubs (4D) or 3-card H support (4H) or (B) a cue-bid with clubs agreed as trump? However you answer, you'll have a major problem with certain hand types.

This sort of "phony suit jump shift" is why Jeff Meckstroth developed the "Meckstroth Adjunct" after 1M-1NT (forcing). It doesn't work after 1m-1M or 1H-1S, however.

Cheers,
mike