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Can you reach 4H here?

#1 User is offline   shevek 

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Posted 2016-September-27, 19:24



Is this auction possible?
If you would have opened 1, ignore the rest.

Do people play a second negative over 3?

Can East bid 3 over 3 with four?

Is 4 normally a control bid here?
(In which case you can never find a 4-4 major fit at this level)

TIA
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#2 User is offline   Kaitlyn S 

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Posted 2016-September-27, 21:01

I don't play a second negative over 3D, and 3H by responder shows 5. I think 4H is okay to show a suit here so the auction is possible.

I'm playing in 1D unless my opponents balance, which they will regret.
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#3 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2016-September-27, 23:50

I open 1D also.

If opening 2C with same shape but slightly stronger, I think the only good method to reach 4-4 fit is if you play the 3M rebid by opener to show 4M and diamond canape method. I am of opinion that 3M over 3D should be 5+M, and don't play any 2nd neg. Cater bids to get to best game. 2nd neg only caters to getting to 4m making 4 only, which is an exceedingly small target with no bonus, silly to aim for.
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#4 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2016-September-28, 02:50

View PostStephen Tu, on 2016-September-27, 23:50, said:

I open 1D also.

2nd neg only caters to getting to 4m making 4 only, which is an exceedingly small target with no bonus, silly to aim for.


Mark me down for 1 also.

Actually no it doesn't, 2nd neg when you have a REALLY big hand allows partner to cue Qs from the off if he's denied a K.
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#5 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2016-September-28, 04:34

There are tools.
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#6 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2016-September-28, 05:34

While we can debate the question as to whether this is really a 2 opener it is rather ducking the issue. One of the good advancements in theory over a 2 opening has been to move away from the old concept of a jump rebid showing a self-supporting suit allowing 2 - 2; 3M instead to show 4 cards in M with longer diamonds. That in turn means that 2 - 2; 3 denies a 4 card major, meaning that Responder's 3M rebid in that sequence shows a 5 card suit. In this way, all 4-4 and 5-3 major fits can be found when Opener has diamonds.

A common corrollary for clubs is to play 2 - 2; 3 - 3 in Stayman-style asking Opener for a 4 card major, with 2 - 2; 3 - 3M then again showing 5. Once again, this uncovers all 4-4 and 5-3 fits.

This is very much what I would recommend if your style is to open these hands with 2. It comes up often and makes handling them much easier.
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#7 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2016-September-28, 06:08

View PostZelandakh, on 2016-September-28, 05:34, said:

In this way, all 4-4 and 5-3 major fits can be found when Opener has diamonds.

Except when Opener has 4351 (or 4360*), Responder has a weak hand with 5 H, and the bidding goes 2-2; 3.

I can see two obvious solutions to this problem:

1) Treat 4351 as balanced.
2) Let 2-2; 3N = 4351, NF.

But maybe there's a standard solution already.

* With this shape Opener can probably afford to follow up with 4 over 2-2; 3-3N.
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#8 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2016-September-28, 06:28

View PostKaitlyn S, on 2016-September-27, 21:01, said:

I'm playing in 1D unless my opponents balance, which they will regret.

Will they? They have 17 and a double fit.
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#9 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2016-September-28, 07:49

4 is a control so the auction is not plausible imo. Probably East should be allowed to bid 3 on four but then again I think West can raise on 3, so it is not even clear if East should pass it.

You need a tool. 2 (multi) followed by 3 shows diamonds + another suit, now 3 asks.

Otherwise I open 1.
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#10 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2016-September-28, 08:06

Without any special tools, the auction of 2 - 2 - 3 is usually the worst self inflicted pre-empt to be anticipated and avoided on a hand like this.

I can't remember an opening like 1 ever going float on shape like this although I'm sure it must have happened a looong time ago.
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#11 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2016-September-28, 08:29

This is the hand that created forcing 1C systems. It is a nightmare for standard methods with 1D risking a missed game and 2C overstating the hand's strength minus a good fit. With that said, playing standard I open 1D and hope.
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#12 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2016-September-28, 09:21

View Postbillw55, on 2016-September-28, 06:28, said:

Will they? They have 17 and a double fit.
Sure. They're trading 130, 150, whatever, for at least 170, maybe 200, probably something starting with 4.

You don't have to go down to regret balancing.

I hate 2 with two-suiters, because without tools, you get suit agreement at the game level, and no idea if we should go on or not. But sometimes, ya gotta do what ya gotta do.
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#13 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2016-September-28, 10:31

No, because after the positive response of 4 , 4 is a cue showing a control.

Yes, you can play second negatives over 3 here. If you play cheapest suit is 2nd negative over 2 openers. 3 here would be a second negative. Then 4 by opener would show the actual hand held and responder could pass. Some people play cheapest minor as a second negative over 2 openers. I don't know what they would do over the 3 rebid as cheapest minor would be 4 .

If you don't play some sort of 2nd negative, then you either jump to 5 as a signoff or invent some bid then preference back to if possible. If you invent a 3 call, the problem, as some other's suggest, is that opener may raise on 3 thinking you have 5.

I have no problem opening this 3 loser hand 2 .
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