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What does this bid mean? Double jump new suit response to pard's 1 level over call

#1 User is offline   movingon 

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Posted 2016-September-10, 16:06

LHO opens 1 club. Partner over calls 1 diamond. RHO bids 1 heart. You bid 3 spades.

What is the 3 spades?
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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2016-September-10, 16:18

Splinter for diamonds for us, 2 would be fit
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#3 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2016-September-10, 16:42

a pre-empt
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#4 User is offline   Stefan_O 

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Posted 2016-September-10, 16:45

In competition, jumps in new suit are "fit showing", i e diamond support + 5 spades.

Jump to 2S also shows such distribution, but 3S show more playing-strength, since you are committing to a higher level -- thus, a hand where you have values for a jump to 4D.

https://en.wikipedia...howing_jump_bid

The article says 5-4/4-5 in the two suits, but when your pd bid a minor and you jump in a major, it should be a 5-card suit to avoid such ambiguity -- it is also the more common case.

Holding shortness for splinter in the unbid suit, in such situation, seems extremely rare,
and would also imply you have lots of cards in opps' suits, so does not make sense to jump like that, IMO.
Better start with a cue-bid in opps suit, and check what pd says...
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#5 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2016-September-10, 16:46

View Postwank, on 2016-September-10, 16:42, said:

a pre-empt


I thought maybe I was nuts but if I am I guess there are two of us.
Ken
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#6 User is offline   Stefan_O 

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Posted 2016-September-10, 17:00

View Postkenberg, on 2016-September-10, 16:46, said:

I thought maybe I was nuts but if I am I guess there are two of us.


pre-empt is probably also playable, if you prefer that, but is it efficient here...?

first, who are you preempting...? opps or pd (who might have overcalled on a 17-points hand or so -- or only 8)?
if it is pre-empt, I think you need to define very tightly what your strength should be.
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#7 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2016-September-10, 17:10

View PostStefan_O, on 2016-September-10, 16:45, said:

In competition, jumps in new suit are "fit showing", i e diamond support + 5 spades.


Only if you have agreed to fit showing jumps. Hardly something anyone should assume undiscussed. I'd assume natural and nonforcing, preemptive like wank and kenberg without any discussion.

Also, even in partnerships where I agree fit-showing jumps, I personally don't play them jumping to a major over partner's minor, as I think showing a long major without any fit for partner and preempting at the same time is rather useful and frequent. Jumping in a minor is somewhat less useful since the opps can outbid you more easily and game/good sac in minor is less likely than in higher ranking major so I am more inclined to play that as fit showing to help judge how high to compete in partner's major. But that's just my opinion. I'd like to be able to show a fist full of spades without having to bid 4 spades, or only 1 spade.
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#8 User is offline   jogs 

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Posted 2016-September-10, 18:06

View PostStefan_O, on 2016-September-10, 16:45, said:

In competition, jumps in new suit are "fit showing", i e diamond support + 5 spades.

Jump to 2S also shows such distribution, but 3S show more playing-strength, since you are committing to a higher level -- thus, a hand where you have values for a jump to 4D.

https://en.wikipedia...howing_jump_bid

The article says 5-4/4-5 in the two suits, but when your pd bid a minor and you jump in a major, it should be a 5-card suit to avoid such ambiguity -- it is also the more common case.

Holding shortness for splinter in the unbid suit, in such situation, seems extremely rare,
and would also imply you have lots of cards in opps' suits, so does not make sense to jump like that, IMO.
Better start with a cue-bid in opps suit, and check what pd says...

More playing strength should mean 6-4(or 5-5 in a pinch).
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#9 User is offline   jogs 

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Posted 2016-September-10, 18:29

View Postwank, on 2016-September-10, 16:42, said:

a pre-empt


View Postkenberg, on 2016-September-10, 16:46, said:

I thought maybe I was nuts but if I am I guess there are two of us.


The 1 bid is forcing. No one cares about your spades. After you pass two or three times and there is still a chance to chime in with 3, bid it. In my 50+ years of playing bridge, it happened once.
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#10 User is offline   lycier 

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Posted 2016-September-10, 21:46



IMO :
Double = 5+ with3-card support
1 = 5+ with denied 3-card support.
2 = 6+ with 13-16hcp
3 = pre-emptive, weakish.
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#11 User is offline   Kaitlyn S 

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Posted 2016-September-10, 22:11

I think the standard treatment of 3S is preemptive.

And yes, maybe nobody cares about it, except the opponents who have had all their room stolen and your partner with:

S- Ax H- x D- AJxxxx C- AQxx

who, against all odds, realizes that 4S is a great contract!

3S is playable as a splinter but I think it's more useful as preemptive. I mean, how often are you going to be able to make 6D against opponents bidding 2 suits and your singleton not being in either one of them?
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#12 User is offline   aawk 

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Posted 2016-September-11, 01:41

All depends how you show your fit in partners overcall. Normaly a raise in d shows a fit with 0-9 HCP, 2c (cue bid in openings suit opponents) a fit in d with at least 10 HCP and all other bids denie a direct interest in partners overcall.

What 3s means depends on your style. Bidding 3s takes a lot of bidding space and in my opinion only makes sence if it is a preemptive bid with at least a 7 card.
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#13 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2016-September-11, 01:45

We play this sequence as preemptive.However if partner is the dealer and opens a major suit I.e.1H/S.and RHO intervenes we use a jump in a MINOR at 4 level as showing a four card honor headed fit and a 5/6 card bid minor headed by two of the three top honors.But on BBO or any,where partner is new ,it is taken by most as a splinter in that minor.So is the given case where the 3 S bid will be taken as preemptive by all .( similar to a weak jump overcall).
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#14 User is offline   zillahandp 

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Posted 2016-September-11, 01:58

A pre empt
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#15 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2016-September-11, 03:38

View PostKaitlyn S, on 2016-September-10, 22:11, said:

I think the standard treatment of 3S is preemptive.

And yes, maybe nobody cares about it, except the opponents who have had all their room stolen and your partner with:

S- Ax H- x D- AJxxxx C- AQxx

who, against all odds, realizes that 4S is a great contract!

3S is playable as a splinter but I think it's more useful as preemptive. I mean, how often are you going to be able to make 6D against opponents bidding 2 suits and your singleton not being in either one of them?


Well it depends if partner has your hand or Axxx, ?xx, AJxxxxx, void and now knows 5 is likely to be cold over 4, and also you won't now defend 5 without finding the spade ruff(s)
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#16 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2016-September-11, 05:38

hi movingon,

It can be interpreted two different ways, depending on agreement. Pre-emptive would be most players' option; though it also could be a hand with a fit, a side suit, a sort of 'mixed raise' and a low ODR (Offence/Defence Ratio)

These specialised bids were explored by Andrew Robson and Oliver Segal some 20 years ago in the book: Partnership Bidding in Bridge: The Contested Auction. However, whether this sequence would apply is open to question. (I'm more inclined to opt for the pre-empt option.)

The idea behind the 'mixed raise' is to provide an alternative opening lead option, and provide information in one bid whether partner should sacrifice or not.
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#17 User is offline   Left2Right 

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Posted 2016-September-11, 09:58

Consider two hands from the Advancer's perspective (shown below as south).
Notice the difference between Hand A: http://tinyurl.com/j9g6ohg
and Hand B: http://tinyurl.com/zkf45gt

Both hands plausibly start with the same three calls. Hand A easily makes six diamonds; Hand B needs to find 3NT.

The key is South's shortness showing bid.

One of the principal points of shortness showing bids is to allow the other partner to diagnose Duplication of Value. For auctions on a minor suit pathway, these shortness showing bids are designed not to exceed 3NT. These two hands really underscore why.
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#18 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2016-September-11, 13:46

When are Robson and Segal going to publish their book on the uncontested auction? B-)
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#19 User is offline   ladydoc 

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Posted 2016-September-11, 14:38

View Postlycier, on 2016-September-10, 21:46, said:



IMO :
Double = 5+ with3-card support
1 = 5+ with denied 3-card support.
2 = 6+ with 13-16hcp
3 = pre-emptive, weakish.


I play exactly this and it works. Would not consider any other way.
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#20 User is offline   Kaitlyn S 

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Posted 2016-September-11, 17:40

View PostCyberyeti, on 2016-September-11, 03:38, said:

Well it depends if partner has your hand or Axxx, ?xx, AJxxxxx, void and now knows 5 is likely to be cold over 4, and also you won't now defend 5 without finding the spade ruff(s)

Which is more common? And do you really want to go back to your teammates and explain why you allowed your opponents to play the hand when you had the spades? Or are you planning on bidding 4S after the auction (1C) 1D (1H) P (2H) P (4H) ?
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