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Share my pain!

#1 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2016-September-01, 20:18



Cross IMPs. 2/1 system.

A-Do you agree with DBL? If not what would you bid?

B-What now?
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#2 User is offline   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2016-September-01, 20:25

I would not double, but rebid 3 so that over 3 you can rebid 3. Would this increase your pain?
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#3 User is offline   alok c 

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Posted 2016-September-01, 22:08

a)3.
b)3.
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#4 User is offline   Kaitlyn S 

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Posted 2016-September-01, 23:09

View Postalok c, on 2016-September-01, 22:08, said:

a)3.
b)3.
I prefer double to 3C since if I bid 3C I expect to play 3C. Doubling and correcting 3D to 3S probably shows almost this much.

I bid 3S over 3H. That doesn't seem that painful. Did partner not think you were this good for that sequence?
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#5 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2016-September-02, 01:47

I would have bid 3S/2H.
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#6 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2016-September-02, 02:10

Double is fine and now I hav a clear 3
3

#7 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2016-September-02, 03:39

hi MrAce,

Quite open to admit I don't know the subtle intricacies of 2/1 bidding, but prefer 3 to X. I would have thought a new suit at this level would be forcing.

As 5-5 + hands should technically be opened 1 - although quite a few players do not - by bidding this way 1 followed by 3, I believe that would show 6s + 4+ with the HCP count you have.

Partner doesn't need much: a singleton , A and Jxxxxx for 6 to be on.
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#8 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2016-September-02, 05:11

View PostThe_Badger, on 2016-September-02, 03:39, said:

As 5-5 + hands should technically be opened 1 - although quite a few players do not -

This comment suggests a universality and currency that those methods don't justify.
Gordon Rainsford
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#9 User is offline   Kaitlyn S 

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Posted 2016-September-02, 05:20

View PostThe_Badger, on 2016-September-02, 03:39, said:

hi MrAce,

Quite open to admit I don't know the subtle intricacies of 2/1 bidding, but prefer 3 to X. I would have thought a new suit at this level would be forcing.
A call is forcing if
(a) the call is in a known ridiculous contract (such as a cuebid or Blackwood)
or
(b) the side could have game (or slam if the bid is a game bid) and only partner knows that.

As North has only passed, and South didn't open with a forcing opening, South can't need another bid to make sure N-S get to game opposite nothing. (a) also is false; we all think 3C shows clubs.

I'm not sure how 3C can be taken as forcing.
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#10 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2016-September-02, 05:21

View PostThe_Badger, on 2016-September-02, 03:39, said:

hi MrAce,

Quite open to admit I don't know the subtle intricacies of 2/1 bidding, but prefer 3 to X. I would have thought a new suit at this level would be forcing.

As 5-5 + hands should technically be opened 1 - although quite a few players do not - by bidding this way 1 followed by 3, I believe that would show 6s + 4+ with the HCP count you have.

Partner doesn't need much: a singleton , A and Jxxxxx for 6 to be on.


With 5-5 reds blacks I always open 1 and I do not think I am in such minority as you stated but perhaps you are right.

To me bidding 3 really deserves

a- to play there when pd has 1-3 black suits. (in actual hand it was close to 1-3)
b- to miss a very lucrative penalty and end up trying to go down less at a 3 level misfit misery, doubled or undoubled.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#11 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2016-September-02, 05:40

View PostMrAce, on 2016-September-02, 05:21, said:

With 5-5 reds I always open 1 and I do not think I am in such minority as you stated

I trust you mean blacks but otherwise agree with you. I would like to ask what 2NT would mean too as many would use it artificially here. Of the options given (presumably assuming 2NT is natural) I prefer X to 3 but 3 is also a decent option if agreed to show a GOSH. If X was correct then we are rather cornered into 3 now but I have to admit not feeling as comfortable about it as most of the other respondents.
(-: Zel :-)

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#12 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2016-September-02, 05:53

View PostThe_Badger, on 2016-September-02, 03:39, said:

hi MrAce,

Quite open to admit I don't know the subtle intricacies of 2/1 bidding, but prefer 3 to X. I would have thought a new suit at this level would be forcing.

As 5-5 + hands should technically be opened 1 - although quite a few players do not - by bidding this way 1 followed by 3, I believe that would show 6s + 4+ with the HCP count you have.

Partner doesn't need much: a singleton , A and Jxxxxx for 6 to be on.


The 5-5 blacks has been much debated, and in 5 card major land it's usually opened 1.

We play 4M and still open 1 other than a couple of specific hand types which we open 1.
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#13 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2016-September-02, 06:05

View PostZelandakh, on 2016-September-02, 05:40, said:

I trust you mean blacks but otherwise agree with you. I would like to ask what 2NT would mean too as many would use it artificially here. Of the options given (presumably assuming 2NT is natural) I prefer X to 3 but 3 is also a decent option if agreed to show a GOSH. If X was correct then we are rather cornered into 3 now but I have to admit not feeling as comfortable about it as most of the other respondents.


Yes I meant blacks (and corrected it now) thanks Zel.

2 NT would be natural with this partner.

I thought this was between 3 and DBL. I would bid 3 with more play oriented hand, one suiter and less defense, something like

AKJxxx
x
AKQ
xxx

But I have way too much defense on this hand if pd decides to convert and less playing strength, I also have a side suit that we can play. I actually made the winning bid by starting DBL as my pd had the chance to double them at 3 level. Not sure he should dbl though. Here is the deal.



Maybe I am resulting but, I started to consider perhaps I could bail out on 3 and pass?
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#14 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2016-September-02, 06:32

Resulting IMO. Partner is going to double on most hands where 3 should be the final contract.
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#15 User is offline   jogs 

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Posted 2016-September-02, 20:10

View PostMrAce, on 2016-September-02, 06:05, said:

Yes I meant blacks (and corrected it now) thanks Zel.

2 NT would be natural with this partner.

I thought this was between 3 and DBL. I would bid 3 with more play oriented hand, one suiter and less defense, something like

AKJxxx
x
AKQ
xxx

But I have way too much defense on this hand if pd decides to convert and less playing strength, I also have a side suit that we can play. I actually made the winning bid by starting DBL as my pd had the chance to double them at 3 level. Not sure he should dbl though. Here is the deal.



Maybe I am resulting but, I started to consider perhaps I could bail out on 3 and pass?


After seeing the results, I like PrecisionL's post even more.

View PostPrecisionL, on 2016-September-01, 20:25, said:

I would not double, but rebid 3 so that over 3 you can rebid 3. Would this increase your pain?


Partner should double 3 to stop you from bidding again.
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#16 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2016-September-03, 03:05

@ Jogs and @ Gonzalo

Are you guys sure I am the one who is resulting? Why is everyone believing that North has a clear double at IMPs? How many tricks does N have in defense vs a normal opening by pd?
What would happen, god forbid, if pd doubled 2 with a normal opening bid and a perfect take out shape? Instead of 19 hcp?
I think double at IMPs deserve something like



"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#17 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2016-September-03, 04:02

I'm doubling 2 in the reopening seat and rebidding 3 over 3 again in the reopening seat. IMO, this best describes the hand -- strong hand, long good . It doesn't work especially well on this hand. Against the universe of possible hands opposite this hand, I think this bidding will work out best more often.

For me, bidding 3 in the reopening seat over 2 should shows 5-5 or better distribution. There's too much danger of settling into a bad contract. Give partner something like xx xxxx xxxx xxx and what's partner to do? If a pass is made and you don't guarantee 5-5, you may end up playing in your 4-3 fit. If you preference back to , you may end up in 5-2 fit when you actually have a 5-3 fit.

I refuse to open 1 when 5-5 in the blacks. More than a few times, I've seen the auction go something like

1 - 1/2 - P - 3
?

Now do you have enough to bid 3 and push the contract to the 4 level if no fit exists? Even over only a 2 call, it may be difficult reopening 2 with a minimum range hand. Even if you get the bid in, it can get murky about just how many you have.
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#18 User is offline   Kaitlyn S 

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Posted 2016-September-03, 08:36

View Postjogs, on 2016-September-02, 20:10, said:

After seeing the results, I like PrecisionL's post even more.



Partner should double 3 to stop you from bidding again.
What if your plan was to double and correct clubs to diamonds showing a huge spade-diamond hand? Partner doubling 3H to stop you from bidding 4D now would be calamitous - with the big club fit the other way, doubling 3H could give you -930 instead of +1370.

I think I've agreed with just about everything MrAce has said this thread.
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#19 User is offline   jogs 

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Posted 2016-September-03, 11:30

View PostKaitlyn S, on 2016-September-03, 08:36, said:

What if your plan was to double and correct clubs to diamonds showing a huge spade-diamond hand? Partner doubling 3H to stop you from bidding 4D now would be calamitous - with the big club fit the other way, doubling 3H could give you -930 instead of +1370.

I think I've agreed with just about everything MrAce has said this thread.

Got the hands confused. Thought South had spades/clubs.
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#20 User is offline   jogs 

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Posted 2016-September-03, 12:36

MrAce did a switcheroo on me. I was bidding 3C on the original hand.


View PostMrAce, on 2016-September-01, 20:18, said:



Cross IMPs. 2/1 system.

A-Do you agree with DBL? If not what would you bid?

B-What now?


With 5=1=4=3 I would double. But if I had chosen 3, partner certainly wouldn't double with his 5 diamonds.
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