[Liversidge]

We play weak no trump, Stayman and four suit transfers. We want a system for responding to 1NT with at least 5-4 in the majors with weak, invitational and game forcing hands and doesn't involve having to remember complicated refinements that differentiate between 5-4, 5-5, 6-4, 6-5 hands.
At present for all these combinations we use Stayman with weak and game forcing hands and Transfers for invitational hands, which is easy to remember.
I guess the rationale is that with a weak hand Stayman has less chance of ending up with a 7 card fit, and transfers are necessary with 11-12 point hands because you can't invite with Stayman. I haven't been able to figure out whether Stayman is better than transferswith 13+ hands.
Comments appreciated.

[1eyedjack]

Without commenting on which is better, and having regard to the sub-forum in which this is posted, I would say that, with regard to UK "standard" methods, your methods are slightly non-standard.

By which I mean, that in terms of simplicity you cannot go much more simple than have a new suit after a transfer as GF. This in turn would suggest that that with an invitational hand with 5-4 in the majors you would start with Stayman and over 2D rebid 3 of your 5 card major.

Now, in the US the more standard interpretation of that sequence would be Smolen, which is to say GF with 4 cards in the bid major and 5 in the other. The idea being to right-side the contract. Nothing particularly wrong with that but it does complicate all of the continuations somewhat.

[ahydra]

Quote

By which I mean, that in terms of simplicity you cannot go much more simple than have a new suit after a transfer as GF. This in turn would suggest that that with an invitational hand with 5-4 in the majors you would start with Stayman and over 2D rebid 3 of your 5 card major.

My partner and I use exactly this method as well, and I do very much recommend it. Not only is it easy to remember, but you can also incorporate Garbage Stayman for when you're weak with both majors. Bidding a new suit after transfer as GF allows opener to show how good his hand is for slam should responder be interested.

ahydra

[helene_t]

With GF hands there are many options. Stayman followed by 3M (after a 2♦ response to Stayman) normally shows 5-4 (you can play Smolen i.e. jump in the 4-card suit but if jumping in the 5-card suit feels more natural then you can agree to do that instead). 2♥ (spades) followed by 3♥ is, then, GF with 5-5 although you could also play it as invitational.

With weak or invitational hands you have fever options. It is normal that
1nt-2♦
2♥-2♠
is invitational with 5-5, but you can agree to bid that way with 5-4 also. In that case,
1nt-2♣
2♦-2♥
would be weak with typically 4♠5♥ although 55 or 44 are also possible.
1nt-2♣
2♦-2♠
must be 5♠4♥ and must agreed as invitational or agreed as weak - you can't have both. Playing weak nt I believe "weak" is more useful.

[Vampyr]

 1eyedjack, on 2016-August-28, 13:47, said:

Now, in the US the more standard interpretation of that sequence would be Smolen, which is to say GF with 4 cards in the bid major and 5 in the other. The idea being to right-side the contract. Nothing particularly wrong with that but it does complicate all of the continuations somewhat.

This is more likely to wrong-side the contract when playing a weak NT.

[Cyberyeti]

What do you play at the 3 and 4 level ? Some of these bids can be used for the more extreme inv/GF shapes

We actually play 1N-4♦ as 5-5 majors to play in 4M or definitely bidding on with 1N-2♥-2♠-3♥-3♠/N-4♥ as the mild slam invite. I believe some people give up Gerber and use 4♣ for this, which has a lot more merit over a strong notrump.

If you agree to do so, you can bid 1N-2♦-2♥-2♠-any-3♠ as some sort of 5-5 GF meaning partner with a 22whatever can still play 3N and 6-5 now pulls to 4M.

[The_Badger]

hi Liversidge,

Amongst all the other conventions suggested, maybe you can also add into your bidding artillery the Weissberger convention, named after the late Maurice Weissberger, a formidable player that I use to play regularly against at my local club. Link below.

http://www.bridgeguy...convention.html

[Zelandakh]

There are many options:

SA
==
weak: transfer to the better 5 card suit
inv 5-4: 2♣, then 2M over 2♦
inv 5-5: 2♦ followed by 2♠
gf 5-4: 2♣, then 3M over 2♦
gf 5-5: 2♥ followed by 3♥
--

Crawling + Extended Stayman
======================
weak 5♠-4+♥: 2♣, then 2♥ over 2♦
weak 5♥-4♠: 2♦
inv 5♥-4♠: 2♦ followed by 2♠
inv 5♠-4♥: 2♣, then 2♠ over 2♦
inv 5-5: 2♥ followed by 3♥
gf 5-4+: 2♣, then 3♣ over 2♦
--

Second Round Transfers
==================
weak 5-4+: 2♣, then 2M over 2♦
inv 5♥-4♠: 2♦ followed by 2NT
inv 5♠-4♥: 2♣, then 2NT over 2♦
inv 5-5: 2♥ followed by 3♥
gf 5-4: 2♣, then 3M over 2♦
gf 5-5: 2♦ followed by 3♦
--

Other options include an immediate 3♦ response for both majors 5-5 and either weak or GF, or an immediate 3♥ response for the 5-5 weak hands. There really are many options here and I am only scratching the surface in this post.

[Liversidge]

 1eyedjack, on 2016-August-28, 13:47, said:

in terms of simplicity you cannot go much more simple than have a new suit after a transfer as GF. This in turn would suggest that that with an invitational hand with 5-4 in the majors you would start with Stayman and over 2D rebid 3 of your 5 card major.

That (and other replies) has made me think things through more, and I now realise that adopting four suit transfers means we can't now invite safely with four hearts and five spades and 10-12 HCP. We used to use the sequence 1NT-2♠ to show this holding, but now we have to bid 1NT-2♥-2♠-3♥.

Using Stayman 1NT-2♣-2♦-3♠ involves the same risk (7 card fit with 23 HCP) but doesn't show the second major. So it makes sense use the two alternatives to differentiate between an invitational and game forcing hand by making the more informative (Transfer) sequence game forcing.

This has also made me think more carefully about the impact one system change can have on other systems. Four suit transfers seemed a great way of dealing with a weak long minor, always keeping the stronger hand tenaces hidden, but we didn't spot that it would change our Stayman/Transfers understanding.

[Stephen Tu]

One thing you should consider is just not worrying about inviting with 4-5/5-4 in the majors if partner doesn't have a major. If 1nt-2c-2M, you can go ahead and invite as usual. If 1nt-2c-2d, just force to game (3M, either natural or Smolen), or signoff using garbage stayman. The invitational hands you just look at them and either upgrade the better ones into a GF, or downgrade the worst ones into sign off. You will occasionally be either too high or too low vs. a field that has an invitational sequence, but it's going to be pretty rare (you are only supposed to invite with a very narrow one point range of hands, and partner has to not show up with a major), and sometimes you will get lucky and an overbid game will make, or you underbid but game doesn't make. Also you avoid the 3 level in a declined invite which is a very good situation for you, as you either tie them if 3 or more makes or beat them if only making 2 is possible. Plus you avoid giving away information if 1nt opener is min or max which helps the defense, and avoid some penalty doubles if trumps break badly (much easier to double you if you made only an invite vs. you could be much stronger and near a slam try).

This is the "pass or blast" approach, and some players actually choose this on all sequences which gives them more bids to deal with more hand types since they don't need to deal with invitational hands. This approach probably works better at IMPS than at MP.

This retains 1nt-2h-2s-3h as 5-5 game forcing. This is useful particularly if partner sometimes opens 1nt with 2245 shapes, and you don't want to play 4M in a 5-2 fit. Otherwise if 3h is only showing 4 you have to bid them again if partner is say 2344. I personally prefer to open 1nt with 22(54) shapes since this preempts opps if they have the majors, allows your side to play in usually higher scoring 5-2 major partials, and avoids having to rebid a minor suit with only 5 cds or make a wide ranging 1d-1M-2c sequence.

It's a matter of what hand types you want to cater to. You could alternately give up garbage stayman and show both 5-4 invites at the 2 level. Or have 1nt-2c-2d-2h be garbage but 1nt-2c-2d-2s be invitational. The latter approach gets you back the invite with 5 spades and 4h (or 5 sp/5min), which is good, but hurts you sometimes on garbage stayman sequences (risk playing 4-2 heart fits if partner can be 2-2 in majors, also if you think 5-2 plays on average a bit better than 4-3 majors you can't play 5-2 heart fit in preference to 4-3 spade fit).

[m1cha]

 Liversidge, on 2016-August-28, 12:38, said:

We play weak no trump, Stayman and four suit transfers. We want a system for responding to 1NT with at least 5-4 in the majors with weak, invitational and game forcing hands and doesn't involve having to remember complicated refinements that differentiate between 5-4, 5-5, 6-4, 6-5 hands.

I play 1NT - 3♦ as 5-5 or longer in the majors, invitational or better, with some partners. Bidding on is simple: 3♥, 3♠ (and 3NT) are to play, and everything else is positive. If you do so, you may play 1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ - 2♠ as 5-5 in the majors and weak. With 6-4 you just bid the 6-card suit, to keep it simple; so all you have to bother about is the 5-4 hands.

With 5-4 weak you may bid Stayman, and if opener responds 2♦, you bid the 5-card suit to play. With all stronger hands I sometimes play what we call "Smolen XL", which is an extension of Smolen. Smolen means, if 2♦ comes up after Stayman, you bid 3M to show 4 cards in this major and 5 cards in the other major, game forcing. Smolen XL can also be invitational: You always bid the suit below the 5-card major, so that you can stop in 3 in the major. That is, 3♦ (not 3♠) shows a 5-card ♥ suit, and opener has the choice between 3♥, 4♥, or 3NT. If opener bids 3 in your major but you are game forcing, you just raise.

Smolen XL is more useful if you open 1NT with 5-card majors because then you may play it with 5-3 hands also in order to find 5-3 fits with opener's 5-card major. In that case, 1NT - 2♣ - 2M - 3♦ shows exactly 3 cards in partner's 4+-card major and 5 cards in the other major. Opener selects between 3♥, 3♠, 3NT, 4♥ and 4♠; and if opener is weak and partner is strong, partner will raise 3M to 4M or start slam bidding. This is not perfect but fairly simple and useful.

Not sure if this combination is better than what you do currently.

By the way, I'm not sure if I understood your problem about the 2♠ bid. You know that you don't need 2NT to invite to 3NT, right? Play "pass or blast" instead; use 2NT as a transfer to ♣, and 2♠ is free for anything else you feel you need.

[Zelandakh]

 m1cha, on 2016-August-29, 21:00, said:

With 5-4 weak you may bid Stayman, and if opener responds 2♦, you bid the 5-card suit to play. With all stronger hands I sometimes play what we call "Smolen XL", which is an extension of Smolen. Smolen means, if 2♦ comes up after Stayman, you bid 3M to show 4 cards in this major and 5 cards in the other major, game forcing. Smolen XL can also be invitational: You always bid the suit below the 5-card major, so that you can stop in 3 in the major. That is, 3♦ (not 3♠) shows a 5-card ♥ suit, and opener has the choice between 3♥, 4♥, or 3NT. If opener bids 3 in your major but you are game forcing, you just raise.

This is not quite sound as you have to play 3M in a 5-2 fit with minimal values when Opener has 2 of your 5 card major. Not the worst thing in the world but there are better alternatives.

 m1cha, on 2016-August-29, 21:00, said:

use 2NT as a transfer to ♣, and 2♠ is free for anything else you feel you need.

Better is to use 2♠ as your invite when that is free and bundle additional hand types there, such as clubs or Baron. That way you gain the flexibility without having to give up on the invitational hand types.

[helene_t]

 Vampyr, on 2016-August-28, 16:38, said:

This is more likely to wrong-side the contract when playing a weak NT.

I don't think so. Responder has shown nine cards in the majors so he can have five distributions, one of which will be ruled out as soon as a minor is lead. Declarer has shown 3-3 or 3-2 in the majors so he can have seven hand types, neither of which will be ruled out before the same suit has been lead three times. So declarer has more to conceal.

[mycroft]

Well, as much as transfers in general are less likely to right-side the contract playing a weak NT.

Smolen means that the balanced hand that has shown a range, no 4cM and either no or yes to one 3cM is always declarer. Sure, dummy is going to be led through, and that's bad if it's the stronger hand, but there are fewer surprises, as only 4 cards are unknown.

Now, in the ACBL, where a weak NT is almost but not quite nonexistent, you also have to deal with "wrongsiding" in that if the long trump hand is on the table, it's being played the other way up at almost every other table, whether it's right to have the balanced hand concealed or led through or not. In the EBU, that's much less of a worry.