[Stefan_O]

msjennifer, on 2016-August-26, 00:03, said:

I would like to invite every friend's attention to "the theory of fourth suiting forcing at least for one round "in the "Super Precision By Belladonna and Garozzo"published quite some years back.They give the following interpretation on the fourth suit bid as under,
A) A genuine suit.OR
B)A cue bid with support in one of the two suits bid by the opener.OR
C) Denying a guard in the suit for NT.
Whether it was A, B,or C is made clear by his bid on the next round.

I am missing the frequent case when responder has a 5-card major and just want to probe for 3-card support...
maybe these guys are smarter than me, at handling an NT contract with a 5-3 major fit, though

msjennifer, on 2016-August-26, 00:03, said:

Opener NEVER bids the fourth suit for the © mentioned above

I did not understand that sentence, sorry...
could you give an example?

[msjennifer]

As far as playing a Standard System,We have found a simple solution which any beginner can practice ."ANY NEWSUIT BID by the Responder at THREE level is absolutely forcing to game".It may also be a slam ambition bid,which will be clear by his next round bid,inviting cue bids up the line.

[msjennifer]

Stefan_O, on 2016-August-26, 00:31, said:

I am missing the frequent case when responder has a 5-card major and just want to probe for 3-card support...
maybe these guys are smarter than me, at handling an NT contract with a 5-3 major fit, though
1H-1S
2C-2D
2S shows 3 cad support.3514 hand
2NT Shows no 3 card support .and at least Kx in diamonds.1534 or2524 hand.
Without a three card support and without a diamond guard he just bids 2H
With Ax,Kx orQx in spades and noD guard he bids 2 S.
Openers 4 suit bid is always natural,
1D( may be only xx and 11/12HCP)-1H
1S-2C(this is not 4th suit since 1D was not a suit.)
2D - This is now a natural 5 card (almost usually 5+) Diamond suit , although it is also the 4 th suit.




I did not understand that sentence, sorry...
could you give an example?

[Vampyr]

msjennifer, on 2016-August-26, 07:15, said:

As far as playing a Standard System,We have found a simple solution which any beginner can practice ."ANY NEWSUIT BID by the Responder at THREE level is absolutely forcing to game".It may also be a slam ambition bid,which will be clear by his next round bid,inviting cue bids up the line.

Many people prefer, eg, 1♣-1♠-2♠-3♦ to be a game try.

[miamijd]

There are problems with either approach.

The trouble with forcing only one round is that the 4S bid has to do too much work. It shows hands anywhere from an invite to a slam force, from a big fit to no fit. The biggest issue comes in investigating slam. Opener ends up having to jump to game on a lot of hands with 16-17, where you could have a slam if responder has a good hand, too. But now there is no good way to investigate.

For example:

1D 1H
2C 2S (one round force)
4H

3H wouldn't be forcing, so opener has to bid 4H. Now what happens when opener has 17 and responder has 15 and slam is icy. Responder can't move, because opener could have a bad 14 or so, so 5H isn't safe. Opener can't do more than bid 4H, b/c responder could have 11.

If you say "Oh, but that's a reverse by responder, so it's a GF" then how about this one:

1H 1S
2C 2D (4S 1RF)
??

Opener has: x AKxxx AQx QJxx

2NT isn't forcing, so you have to bid 3NT, which shows 14-21. That may be the right spot most of the time, but then what is responder to do with:

Axxxx xx Kx AKTx

6C is a fine spot here. But how in the world can responder bid over 3NT? Opener didn't have to have that strong a hand, and 9 tricks could be the limit (as it is, you only make 10 in NT; take out the Qd and opener still has a GF but you're down to 9).

It's a whole lot easier if the bidding can go:

1H 1S
2C 2D (4S GF)
3NT (15-17 unbalanced)

Now 3NT is 15-17 with shortness. With 12-14 or 18+ you bid 2NT (and then you bid on over 3NT with 18+). With the balanced hand, you'd have opened 1NT. And with 2524, you make the default 2H rebid (which does not guarantee 6 here).

So responder knows opener should be exactly 1534 with 15-17. It's pretty easy for responder to bid 4C, and now you hit your slam.

There are a whole lot of auction like this.

Cheers,
mike

[Vampyr]

miamijd, on 2016-August-26, 13:00, said:

1H 1S
2C 2D (4S 1RF)
??

Well, you can bid "Fifthr Suit Forcing" which is, I think a raise of the fourth suit. But I don't know what the continuations are.

How does opening 1NT range affect 4th suit auction issues?

[miamijd]

Vampyr, on 2016-August-26, 13:17, said:

Well, you can bid "Fifthr Suit Forcing" which is, I think a raise of the fourth suit. But I don't know what the continuations are.

How does opening 1NT range affect 4th suit auction issues?

A raise of the fourth suit generally shows 4 cards in that suit (4441 or 5440). After all, responder could actually have 4-5 of the fourth suit. It's also forcing to game in any system. But it is definitely not artificial. Otherwise, you lose the 4S. For example:

1D 1S
2C 2H
??

You have to have a 3H bid available in case partner is 54 or 55 in the majors.

4S 1RF v GF used to be a debate, and about 50% of 2/1 players played each way. But that debate has pretty much been settled, and almost everyone plys 4S as GF nowadays. To your second question, however, if you play a strong club, then 4SF one round works very nicely, because opener is limited, so you don't have the slam investigation issues. Opening NT range doesn't matter so much.

Cheers,
mike

Cheers,
mike

[Vampyr]

miamijd, on 2016-August-26, 16:12, said:

A raise of the fourth suit generally shows 4 cards in that suit (4441 or 5440). After all, responder could actually have 4-5 of the fourth suit. It's also forcing to game in any system. But it is definitely not artificial. Otherwise, you lose the 4S. For example:

1D 1S
2C 2H
??

You have to have a 3H bid available in case partner is 54 or 55 in the majors.

Yes I know, so I was dubious about the idea and it turns out I was wrong. One Internet site I found says that the fourth suit is a puppet to the next suit up, and that next suit bid directly is the "fifth suit", artificial and forcing to game. Apparently this only operates when the first three suits are below the level of 2♠, which stands to reason, but also the fourth suit must not be spades.

The article only gave examples of 1/1 auctions, and I would think that for any player the fourth suit after a 2/1 auction would be game forcing.

[petem]

When I sit down to play with a new partner, I usually play 4SF to game. We check the box, and move on. However, this approach handles a class of hands poorly: when responder has an invitational hand, and no stopper in the fourth suit (typically with a 5-card major). The "who needs a stopper?" folks have no problem.

Eddie Kantar advises playing 4SF one round, invitational or better. His rule is that, if responder bids at the 3-level, it becomes forcing to game. I have been playing this way in established partnerships for years, and it really works. (Incidentally, I play the same rule after new minor forcing.) Some details:

-- Opener cannot afford to make a simple rebid when holding a game-going hand. Jump raise responder's major or bid 3NT when appropriate.

-- Opener may not have any suitable bid other than two of responder's major on a doubleton.

-- Responder may be slamming in opener's minor, and not have a 5-card major.