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non 2/1 auction

#1 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2016-August-09, 16:33

yesterday i was bored and went to the club and was partnered with an 88 year old grump who only knew weak and 4 (not a problem)

anyway the auction went unopposed 1s 2d 2s 3s apparently this is non forcing wtf how is this even playable lol
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#2 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2016-August-09, 19:44

Sequences like that are why 2/1 is better. Not perfect just better.
Sarcasm is a state of mind
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#3 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2016-August-09, 21:37

At the end of the day, it's about whether you get to the right contracts or not that determines the viability of any bidding system.

While, like you, I believe 2/1 has some inherent advantages in bidding, those advantages aren't so overwhelming that a simpler bidding system can't at least be competitive. Most auctions aren't that complicated that any system has a big edge. And when there is a difference, the pair playing 2/1 must use the tools available effectively to ensure a better result.

I regularly play a simplified Standard American bidding system with a handicapped partner. Strong NTs, 4 suited transfers, simple Blackwood, negative doubles, limit raises and that's about it. (No Michaels, Jacoby 2 NT, splinters, 4th suit forcing, support doubles, or NMF at all.) Yet, we are still consistent winners in most competitions. I'll grant that there are times we have to guess where a pair with the right tools can make more informed decisions. But in the end, card playing skill and judgment are still the biggest factors in playing well.

OTOH, my favorite partner and I have played KS (essentially 2/1 with weak NTs,5 card majors) for 40+ years and have worked through just about every possible bidding situation. If we can't remember our agreements or run into something new, we know and trust how each other bid so well that it offers some huge advantages in understanding the situation and what partner is doing. We liken it to putting on a favorite pair of old shoes. There's a comfort level that fosters great pleasure and top notch performance.
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#4 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2016-August-10, 02:05

View Posteagles123, on 2016-August-09, 16:33, said:

anyway the auction went unopposed 1s 2d 2s 3s apparently this is non forcing wtf how is this even playable lol

With slam interest you can manufacture a new suit at the 3 level. It means that auctions with very strong hands are often rather round-about. It also leads to the observation that taking a slower route means a stronger hand, which is one many club players unfortunately forget. In any case, this is part of the basis of traditional Acol, that we can make a variety of non-forcing calls in many situations and stronger hands have to find some alternative. There are good reasons why this approach has largely died out at high levels but it works well enough most of the time if you understand the way it works.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#5 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2016-August-10, 03:10

Maybe you can make a strong jump shift first and then support afterwards? Some will say that "should" show 4-card support but I believe the strong hands with 3-card support are more problematic, since with 4-card support you can just use Jacoby 2NT.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#6 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2016-August-10, 03:19

Hi Rowland,

Sounds like you were being as grumpy as your partner! :)

Yes the auction described is non-forcing in Acol - although I don't think I've seen this auction very often. And yes, 3 is a very precise target to hit - it sounds like your partner is passing the buck!
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#7 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2016-August-10, 04:15

Hi eagles123,

New bridge proverb: Never play bridge when bored (as you always get partnered by an ancient grump who plays a system out of the Stone Age). lol! :)
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#8 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2016-August-10, 04:34

It shows an INV hand with 3-card support - Axx Kx KJxxx xxx. How is that unplayable? Seems like a common hand type.

ahydra
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#9 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2016-August-10, 06:04

View Postahydra, on 2016-August-10, 04:34, said:

It shows an INV hand with 3-card support - Axx Kx KJxxx xxx. How is that unplayable? Seems like a common hand type.

ahydra

It is unplayable to have no way to show a forcing raise.

Of course the forcing raise doesn't have to be 3. You could play 4 as the forcing raise.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#10 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2016-August-10, 06:10

View Posteagles123, on 2016-August-09, 16:33, said:

yesterday i was bored and went to the club and was partnered with an 88 year old grump who only knew weak and 4 (not a problem)

anyway the auction went unopposed 1s 2d 2s 3s apparently this is non forcing wtf how is this even playable lol

Of course it's non-forcing in Acol. If you don't think it's playable, your "not a problem" comments seems out of place.
Gordon Rainsford
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#11 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2016-August-11, 06:41

I think the weak 4ers I've played with would be showing 6 spades by the 2 rebid, no? Then the 3 card support would be bidding 4. I assume opener is showing a weak hand by the sequence, ie one not too strong for 1NT. Therefore it would be a 1NT open if a 4 card major, therefore the 1 open is 5, so the 2 is 6. Therefore the 3 is now GF.

I think I have demonstrated how I can't understand acol biding !
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#12 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2016-August-11, 06:54

View PostfromageGB, on 2016-August-11, 06:41, said:

I think the weak 4ers I've played with would be showing 6 spades by the 2 rebid, no?

I think I have demonstrated how I can't understand acol biding !

Quite so - what would you expect them to rebid with a weak 54 hand?
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#13 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2016-August-11, 08:11

acol's good for matchpoints because you have lots of invitational bids (such as this one) to judge level more accurately. it's bad for imps because the lack of forcing bids makes it difficult to bid slam or explore less common games, e.g. 5m or a 5-2 major fit.
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#14 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2016-August-11, 11:10

View PostZelandakh, on 2016-August-11, 06:54, said:

Quite so - what would you expect them to rebid with a weak 54 hand?


Yes, the sequence 1S, 2C; 2S promises a six-card suit. But 1S, 2D; 2S will either be 6+ spades or 5-4 in spades and clubs (and lacking the values to reverse).
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#15 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2016-August-11, 11:18

View Postwank, on 2016-August-11, 08:11, said:

acol's good for matchpoints because you have lots of invitational bids (such as this one) to judge level more accurately. it's bad for imps because the lack of forcing bids makes it difficult to bid slam or explore less common games, e.g. 5m or a 5-2 major fit.


Agree. But to play Acol well you do have to work hard with partner to make sure you do understand the forcing bids available - if you put in the work there are more forcing bids available than appear at first sight. For example, in Rowland's sequence a new suit should be forcing and a new suit at the three level game forcing. Frances Hinden wrote a helpful article on these "third-suit forcing" sequences in the Aug 15 edition of English Bridge.
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#16 User is offline   jallerton 

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Posted 2016-August-11, 15:25

View PostTramticket, on 2016-August-11, 11:10, said:

Yes, the sequence 1S, 2C; 2S promises a six-card suit. But 1S, 2D; 2S will either be 6+ spades or 5-4 in spades and clubs (and lacking the values to reverse).


Only if you have the (relatively uncommon) agreement to open a weak NT on all 5M332 hands in range.
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#17 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2016-August-11, 16:49

View Postjallerton, on 2016-August-11, 15:25, said:

Only if you have the (relatively uncommon) agreement to open a weak NT on all 5M332 hands in range.


We do. But I agree that this is not universal.
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#18 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2016-August-11, 20:11

LOL the title of the post is odd, since this was a 2/1 auction.

Anyway I had thought that the approach suggested by jallerton was played by the majority of players. Of course it could still be "relatively uncommon", since we do not know the answer to "relative to what?"
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#19 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2016-August-11, 20:25

View PostVampyr, on 2016-August-11, 20:11, said:

LOL the title of the post is odd, since this was a 2/1 auction.



As in not playing 2/1 GF.
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#20 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2016-August-11, 20:41

View PostCyberyeti, on 2016-August-11, 20:25, said:

As in not playing 2/1 GF.


I know, I just wish that people playing 2/1 GF would specify it as such, otherwise there is often ambiguity. Every single player bids 2/1 after all.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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