[MrAce]

wank, on 2016-July-24, 06:22, said:

with no wastage in clubs i think your partner owed you more than 3s.

i think that's what XX should show.

KJxx
QJx
Qxxx
xx

has no wastage in clubs either. Max of a mix raise. Yet it is a hopeless game.

KJxx
QJxx
Qx
xxx

has no ♣ wastage, max of a mix raise, but even 3♠ is too high.

xxxx
Qxx
Axxx
Qx

has ♣ wastage, not a good game but is not as hopeless as others.

[Caitlynne]

3C has forced to 3S, so fast arrival says that bidding 3S immediately is the weakest action. You could have less for your overcall - quite a bit less in some styles - so you should not bid 3S. With nothing worth showing, Pass is indicated.

As the 3C bidder, once partner passes having shown a non-minimum overcall, the 3C bidder must judge what to do. 3S is to play opposite a normal sound overcall.

So, the 1S bidder having shown a normal sound overcall must pass 3S, respecting partner's decision.

[MrAce]

Caitlynne, on 2016-July-24, 09:50, said:

3C has forced to 3S, so fast arrival says that bidding 3S immediately is the weakest action. You could have less for your overcall - quite a bit less in some styles - so you should not bid 3S. With nothing worth showing, Pass is indicated.

As the 3C bidder, once partner passes having shown a non-minimum overcall, the 3C bidder must judge what to do. 3S is to play opposite a normal sound overcall.

So, the 1S bidder having shown a normal sound overcall must pass 3S, respecting partner's decision.

Are you and MsJennifer actually reading what has been written so far, or are you just clicking on topics and writing something for writing something?

If you two think this topic was to inform people there is a difference between mix raise and preemptive raise, people already know it. If you two think that the hand in OP should make some sort of try by either passing or bidding 3♥ over DBL, this is already done as you see in OP.

Of course 3♣ bidder must judge what to do, that is the purpose of this topic at the first place. What has been being debated here is which criterias should 3♣ bid take into consideration when making his/her judgement.

[msjennifer]

Could anyone explain what is over caller's partner supposed to bid holding xxxx,Qxxx,AKxx,x ?.Did some one say 4S and not 3C?.A game is cold unless of course over callers LHO holds all four missing trumps.A 3H bid by overcaller and 4S is automatic.

[MrAce]

msjennifer, on 2016-July-24, 11:12, said:

Could anyone explain what is over caller's partner supposed to bid holding xxxx,Qxxx,AKxx,x ?.Did some one say 4S and not 3C?.A game is cold unless of course over callers LHO holds all four missing trumps.A 3H bid by overcaller and 4S is automatic.

Cue

[msjennifer]

msjennifer, on 2016-July-24, 11:12, said:

Could anyone explain what is over caller's partner supposed to bid holding xxxx,Qxxx,AKxx,x ?.Did some one say 4S and not 3C?.A game is cold unless of course over callers LHO holds all four missing trumps.A 3H bid by overcaller and 4S is automatic.A pass or 3S whichever way YOU play it,creates indecision as to over callers hand.We have to remember that it's just an overcaller.3H is not heart suit else with an opening hand with both majors there would be a TOD. And again.finally there is always "we agree to disagree".

[The_Badger]

hi Timo (MrAce)

I have read all the replies on this interesting question to the forum, and I just think personally there is no right or wrong answer here. It's just one of those hands where you will either make either 3♠, 3♠+1, 4♠ or 4♠-1 - and occasionally even 3♠ doesn't even make.

How many times has this happened in a bridge lifetime? Many, oh so many.

As much as we try to extract every little nugget from our bidding prowess, fortune will ultimately be the deciding factor and as much as I personally don't like saying this, Bridge can be a lucky game.

The best players will always ultimately win in the end in the long term through skill, but the best players can also be beaten by luck too in the short term.

When you replied to my post and said that:

I passed 3♣ DBL and when pd bid 3♠ I passed again.

Pd held.

JT9x
Qxx
Axxx
xx

♠K was with the opener.

I say that (in my view) statistically the ♠K was more likely to be with West than the opener. So actually making 4♠ is against the odds...but there again what is needed is a large simulation (which unfortunately I don't have) with the South hand (of let's say 10,000 hands) to see actually how many times 4♠ makes on a variety of different North hands. That will probably be the only sensible way to judge whether to twist or stick.

[RIPETOMATO]

First of all,I would like to know if you play LTC or not.Playing LTC it means if your over call is on 8 losers bid 3S and if it is on 7 losers then bid 4 S.Since You have 7 losers bid 4S.Same after RHO doubles 3C bid.Believe in your partners 3 C bid which shows 7 losers and a singleton club since you have 3 of them and opponents have 9 .Just ignore the double.If you don't play LTC then too bad.But even then in a regular partnership you must have discussed what the 3 C bid means. Bid according to your partnership understanding.

[RIPETOMATO]

[quote name='MrAce' timestamp='1469362111' post='892361']
Ok what do you want him to bid with hands like

KJxx
QJx
Qx
xxxx

or

KJxx
xxxx
xx
KQx

over your 3♥? Bidding 3♥ will never solve any problems. You do not even want to be at 3 level and game

[Zelandakh]

It is unclear whether the 7-9 in the OP refers to HCP or TP. Giving a range as "7-9HCP for a typical balanced hand", which would presumably be ~8-10TP, seems to be the worst of all worlds. In any case, if the range really is 7-9TP then 3♠ seems obvious. At 12TP the hand given by msjennifer (xxxx,Qxxx,AKxx,x) is obviously much stronger than this. If she really plays her mixed raise in this way (based purely from HCP) then I would humbly suggest looking at alternatives. To me such a method is close to unplayable.

On the theory front, I would suggest that 3♦ and 3♥ should be HSGTs here. How to use Pass and XX is more interesting. One option inspired by Nagy GTs is for Pass to be either a SSGT in an undisclosed suit or a power try. That leaves enough space to unwind if the opps remain silent - but of course that may well not be the case. Default without agreement should be the power try as already discussed. Similarly, XX could be (inter alia) a HSGT in clubs, a SSGT in clubs, or penalty (catching players that feel the need to double in here with 18 balanced). It could also be the power try itself if you choose a different meaning for Pass.

To discuss the actual hand, someone should probably post precisely what GIB plays. The more general theoretical discussion is probably more interesting though.

[rhm]

MrAce, on 2016-July-23, 07:47, said:

Idk, do mix raises promise a balanced hand?

No, but it shows a hand not worth a limit raise.
Therefor I need an exceptional mixed raise for game.
I would choose between Pass and 3♠ on my second turn, whatever I agreed to be stronger.
I definitely do not want to give more encouragement.

I would certainly pass 3♠.

Rainer Herrmann

[RIPETOMATO]

My impression so far is a bid of 2C by partner shows a good support and one defensive trick,a 2S is preemptive with likely short hearts but no defensive trick ,3C bid shows good support and two outside defensive trick a 3S shows a preemptive hand, as does 4S bid ,to take away a leeway from opponents.I am open tu better suggestions.Since I play LTC I would reply to the three hands posed by Mr.Ace,2S,4S and 2S respectively and will not bother about the results. I don't have the slightest idea how a passed hand can make a jump cue bid when partner has only over called at one level.I am open to enlightenment.

[MrAce]

RIPETOMATO, on 2016-July-25, 13:01, said:

My impression so far is a bid of 2C by partner shows a good support and one defensive trick,a 2S is preemptive with likely short hearts but no defensive trick ,3C bid shows good support and two outside defensive trick a 3S shows a preemptive hand, as does 4S bid ,to take away a leeway from opponents.I am open tu better suggestions.Since I play LTC I would reply to the three hands posed by Mr.Ace,2S,4S and 2S respectively and will not bother about the results. I don't have the slightest idea how a passed hand can make a jump cue bid when partner has only over called at one level.I am open to enlightenment.

It is called mixed raise.

Most popular method among good players is

2♣ = cue = support and at least an invitation hand or better,
2♠=5-9 and usually balanced if 8-9
3♠ = Preempt

3♣ = jump cue = mix raise = 4 card support hand that is better than preempt but not as good as 2♣ cue. (usually 7-9 hcp and 4 card fit)

[mcphee]

I am not delighted with my over call because of the 3 fast losers in C. However its not a complete dog and good things happen in 9 card fits. I see the options as bidding 4S, or passing to invite game. To dismiss game with 3S is not logical playing imps.

[rhm]

mcphee, on 2016-July-26, 02:41, said:

To dismiss game with 3S is not logical playing imps.

I do not completely rule out game either.
But I am not convinced it would be illogical to do so.
First you are not vulnerable and game requires a solid 50% chance.
Giving any sort of encouragement might well land you in game with less than 50% chance on average.

As MrAce pointed out there are many maximum mixed raises, which do not offer any reasonable chance for game at all.

IMPs is not a form of scoring where you should always be in game.

Rainer Herrmann

[Wackojack]

1. 3♠ Don't like it
3. Pass Still don't like it

"Pd held.

JT9x
Qxx
Axxx
xx"

OK This is how it looks to me:

♠J109x is perfect. Give this hand the K♠instead and game becomes possible now with only 9 pointers plus small club doubletons. Very unlikely. So I think the chance of the cards being right for game is less than 30%.

Not sure of the chances that 3♠ will go off. Must be significant. The semi-pre-empt is a LAW raise, based on opps having at least an 8 card fit. So if 3♠goes off it is saving against opps very likely making a 3 level contract. Perhaps 3♣in this instance.