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Question lebenshol 2NT after reverse 2/1 ACBL

#1 User is offline   dickiegera 

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Posted 2016-July-21, 14:29





Am I correct that 2NT cannot be passed?


If it can be passed, must I bypass 2NT and bid a direct 3NT
with this hand?



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#2 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2016-July-21, 17:34

IMO reverse after 1nt response should be treated separately from reverse after suit response. After suit response, you don't want to pass 2nt leb, because responder might have fit but weak for opener's first suit, and want to distinguish this from stronger hands. Also playing 2nt forcing allows one to break up responders nt strength responses, so one can say distinguish a jump to 3nt vs 2nt followed by 3nt or 2nt followed by 4 nt.

The situation here is different. Responder won't have heart support unless limit raise, which can jump to 4 level. Responder won't have hands stronger than 12 pts no fit they need to show. Preference to 3h can just be the weak 4-5/6 raise 2nt. So you can play 2nt as nf which might be as much as you can make if you take one of the kings from responder away.
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#3 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2016-July-22, 06:11

See wank's reply below. I personally forgot that after a 1NT response and a reverse, 2NT is not Lebensohl.

( Senior moment :( )

Postscript: Now having read another half-a-dozen posts on the forum, I realise that I was provisionally right - it is Lebensohl by agreement. Not all players will play it this way though.

One thing that has always struck me about the 2/1 system is, on some occasions, how clumsy the (forcing) 1NT response can be, with its large(ish) point range, and relying on it to cover a multitude of hands. Using Checkback and Lebensohl does really help, but intervention from the opponents can scupper its effectiveness, and sometimes even 2NT is the only contract you wish to be in.
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#4 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2016-July-22, 06:40

no lebensohl after 1NT response. lebensohl is for 1 suit x - 1 suit y - 2 suit z (reverse)
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#5 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2016-July-22, 09:31

A pair playing 2/1 GF or a pair playing 2/1 forcing only upto 2NT or 3 of a suit both can certainly employ lebensohl .In the first case the 1NT by responder can have upto 11/12(bad)HCP with no support.Now if the 2NT rebid can be used to define the range upto 8 HCP and any other direct minor suit 3 bid to show a long suited minor and 9 /11 range as lebensohl bids why not?Same can be applied to second case to show 5/7 HCP with or without only a doubleton support by 2NT( forcing lebensohl) and use other bids,albeit appropriately,to show 8/10 HCP.It is not possible to give details of describing different holdings by appropriate bids using lebensohl in such sequences for want of space.
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#6 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2016-July-22, 09:47

The lebensohl can be used in many other bidding situations also.However, only fixed partnerships can play all of them.It is a boomerang when playing with an unknown partner.
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#7 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2016-July-22, 10:00

My partnership does play lebensohl on in this auction to play in a 6 or 7 card minor that responded 1nt with a weak hand.

2nt followed by 3nt is essentially to play but shows doubt so opener can remove to 4 if they feel like it so with the actual minor suit cards we would jump to 3nt and play it there.
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#8 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2016-July-22, 11:45

I have not seen this discussed much so I appreciate it.

I have thought that the different auction 1m-1NT-2M-2NT should not be Leb, it should be "I said 6-10, it's closer to 6 then 10, do as you think best".
But 1H-1NT-2S-2NT is definitely a different situation. The 1NT was roughly 6-12, and the chance of responder having a long minor is higher than before. After 1C-1NT-2H it is almost impossible that responder wants to get out in 3D, but after 1H-1NT-2S it is a live possibility that responder would like to escape to 3m. It is also possible that he has a hand that was just a little short of a first round 2m bid.

So the best choice is not clear to me. I do think that with a reverse that starts with 1m-1NT-2M that leb should be off. That's the easy one.

Added: Posts 27 and 28 in the "primer on reverse bidding" in this, the I/A Forum, by mikeh address this a little. mikeh does not answer, or even claim to answer, all questions but it seems like a good place to start.
Ken
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#9 User is offline   Caitlynne 

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Posted 2016-July-22, 18:03

2NT is absolutely positively unequivocally forcing on opener. Opener may not Pass unless he is willing to voluntarily submit to immediate execution.

Though opener is expected to rebid to 3C, this bid is not mandatory. With an unusually distributional or powerful hand, opener may bid something else. But under no circumstances may opener call Pass after a Lebensohl 2NT.
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#10 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2016-July-22, 18:35

View PostCaitlynne, on 2016-July-22, 18:03, said:

2NT is absolutely positively unequivocally forcing on opener. Opener may not Pass unless he is willing to voluntarily submit to immediate execution.

Though opener is expected to rebid to 3C, this bid is not mandatory. With an unusually distributional or powerful hand, opener may bid something else. But under no circumstances may opener call Pass after a Lebensohl 2NT.


It's totally up to partnership agreement whether Lebensohl 2nt applies here. It's reasonable to play Lebensohl, which gives you ability to distinguish between signoff in a minor vs. forcing in a minor, but at the expense of being able to play 2nt. It's all a matter of what hand types you want to cater to and what you want to give up.

I looked up this auction a few months ago, I found at least 4 options:
- Lebensohl
- 2nt/3c/3d/3H all NF. (Truscott bidding dictionary)
-2nt/3H NF 3c/3d forcing (Root/Pavlicek Modern Bidding Conventions)
- transfers starting with 2nt, 3s shows both minors (suggested by Justin)
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