[lamford]

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IMPs. Swiss Teams. Table Result 5Sx=

This was a potential appeal from a London Swiss Teams, which North decided to withdraw as his team was not in contention. West is a top international. East is much less experienced and not expert. The contract made, and the TD ruled that West's 5S was either the only LA or not demonstrably suggested by the speed of the double (he did not specify which). East's double might not be everyone's choice (!) but do you agree with the TD ruling? There was no agreement on the meaning of double and presumably was intended as penalties.

Some views on LAs can be discerned from the High Level Decision thread in Intermediate and Advanced Bridge Discussions.

[barmar]

I assume there's no disagreement that the double was especially slow? When an auction reaches a high level so quickly, East is likely to have a tough decision with many different hand types, so it's not clear that the hesitation suggests anything in particular.

I think I agree with the ruling. West expects that his partner is probably counting on him for some defense, since you don't usually preempt over a preempt. But that's pretty much what he did, and there's a good chance he has only 1 defensive trick. So passing may not be an LA, and then it doesn't matter what the hesitation suggests.

[gordontd]

The White Book says:

Quote

8.16.2 What does a hesitation mean?
The L&EC considers that:
( c ) A hesitation followed by a penalty double is normally willing to see it removed

I would be surprised if the intended ruling was that pulling the double was not suggested; much easier to understand would be the argument that passing was not a logical alternative, though we could get a better idea of whether or not that was the case by polling peers of the player.

[lamford]

gordontd, on 2016-July-21, 09:15, said:

I would be surprised if the intended ruling was that pulling the double was not suggested; much easier to understand would be the argument that passing was not a logical alternative, though we could get a better idea of whether or not that was the case by polling peers of the player.

Yes. The TD just stated that he "had polled and they were happy with the 5S bid." If both East and West are expert, then polling will work. The problem here is that the expert will have a better idea of what the inexpert partner would have for a slow double. Do you poll peers of the player AND inform them that their partner might not be of their standard?

[gordontd]

lamford, on 2016-July-21, 09:24, said:

The problem here is that the expert will have a better idea of what the inexpert partner would have for a slow double.

That doesn't matter if we are ruling that bidding was suggested. All that matters is whether pass is an LA.

[barmar]

gordontd, on 2016-July-21, 11:27, said:

That doesn't matter if we are ruling that bidding was suggested. All that matters is whether pass is an LA.

But doesn't that depend on what they think the basic meaning of Pass without the hesitation is?

[gordontd]

barmar, on 2016-July-21, 12:00, said:

But doesn't that depend on what they think the basic meaning of Pass without the hesitation is?

No, that only affects what is suggested. To determine LAs all we need to know is the auction (without hesitations).

[RMB1]

barmar, on 2016-July-21, 12:00, said:

But doesn't that depend on what they think the basic meaning of Pass without the hesitation is?

Yes. But in determining LAs we don't tell them that the double was slow. We can tell them that partner is weaker than the pollee.

[ggwhiz]

Pass is not a LA imo.

A certain pause is to be expected in an auction of this flavour and more so with an inexperienced east so I agree with RMB1 and would be surprised if the 5♠ bid wasn't a strong majority.

[sanst]

RMB1, on 2016-July-21, 12:30, said:

Yes. But in determining LAs we don't tell them that the double was slow. We can tell them that partner is weaker than the pollee.

It wouldn't take a genius to guess that the reason for the poll is a slow double, what else. Polling is a good idea, but often the reason for the poll is clear to experienced players.

[lamford]

ggwhiz, on 2016-July-21, 12:43, said:

Pass is not a LA imo.

A certain pause is to be expected in an auction of this flavour and more so with an inexperienced east so I agree with RMB1 and would be surprised if the 5♠ bid wasn't a strong majority.

It seemed to be about 60% to bid 5S in the other thread. I agree that a non-expert East will often have a problem, but not when he or she has balanced rubbish. The slow double from a non-expert says: "I don't want to pass. I am not sure whether to bid 5S or double."

"A certain pause is to be expected in an auction of this flavour and more so with an inexperienced East", but only when holding values without any clear action. And if you did poll peers of East, I think most would bid 5S.

[nige1]

ggwhiz, on 2016-July-21, 12:43, said:

Pass is not a LA imo.

Probably not a peer of West, but given West's hand as a problem, I was one of the players who passed.

[barmar]

gordontd, on 2016-July-21, 12:29, said:

No, that only affects what is suggested. To determine LAs all we need to know is the auction (without hesitations).

"A logical alternative action is one that, among the class of players in question and using the methods of the partnership...." Since it says "using the methods of the partnership", it means that it depends on the meaning of the bids in the auction.

[gordontd]

barmar, on 2016-July-21, 22:34, said:

"A logical alternative action is one that, among the class of players in question and using the methods of the partnership...." Since it says "using the methods of the partnership", it means that it depends on the meaning of the bids in the auction.

East didn't pass over 5H so it wasn't a call in the auction.

[pran]

gordontd, on 2016-July-22, 01:38, said:

East didn't pass over 5H so it wasn't a call in the auction.

HUH ? ? ? ? ?

Law definitions said:

Bid An undertaking to win at least a specified number of odd tricks (tricks in excess of six) in a specified denomination.
Call Any bid, double, redouble or pass.

[gordontd]

pran, on 2016-July-22, 03:16, said:

HUH ? ? ? ? ?

You don't need to tell me the difference - if you look at my post I chose my word carefully (and changed the word that had been used in the post to which I was responding).

If he didn't pass over 5H, which he didn't, then pass over 5H was not a call in that auction and therefore its meaning is irrelevant to determining LAs in the auction that took place. I suggest you follow the thread before responding.

[pran]

gordontd, on 2016-July-22, 04:44, said:

You don't need to tell me the difference - if you look at my post I chose my word carefully (and changed the word that had been used in the post to which I was responding).

If he didn't pass over 5H, which he didn't, then pass over 5H was not a call in that auction and therefore its meaning is irrelevant to determining LAs in the auction that took place. I suggest you follow the thread before responding.

When investigating the meaning of a call made in an auction the meaning of calls available but not made in that auction is relevant (Law 20F1). Therefore such calls are also relevant when determining the LAs after a particular call from partner.

[lamford]

gordontd, on 2016-July-22, 01:38, said:

East didn't pass over 5H so it wasn't a call in the auction.

In some high-level auctions, the now infamous F-S appeal for example, pass was claimed to be forcing. Although that is unlikely here, the meaning of alternative calls which might have been made but were not is crucial. LAs are decided based on EVERY aspect of the auction.

And in the crucial ruling against Gold in the Poland v England semi-final, hands that would have opened the strong version of a Polish club were relevant even though that wasn't a call in the auction. So, I don't know where you get the notion that only calls actually made are relevant. I was surprised to see this statement from you:

"To determine LAs all we need to know is the auction (without hesitations)." That is clearly insufficient.

[ggwhiz]

nige1, on 2016-July-21, 17:54, said:

Probably not a peer of West, but given West's hand as a problem, I was one of the players who passed.

I put this up as a poll on bridgewinners and so far have 15 bidders (2 for 6♣) and 13 passers.

Wow! If I ever need a poll of my peers I guess I insist on (at least) borderline criminally insane types. This is a pretty good advertisement for polling instead of the Director using their own bridge judgement.

[gordontd]

lamford, on 2016-July-22, 07:29, said:

"To determine LAs all we need to know is the auction (without hesitations)." That is clearly insufficient.

I could have said "In this instance..." to prevent people imagining I was talking about a different set of circumstances.