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both majors

#41 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2016-July-20, 12:18

I don't have that much so I'll take the cautious route with 3. Please link me to the poll on BW as I cannot find it. Thx .. neilkaz ..
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#42 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2016-July-20, 12:29

View Postneilkaz, on 2016-July-20, 12:18, said:

I don't have that much so I'll take the cautious route with 3. Please link me to the poll on BW as I cannot find it. Thx .. neilkaz ..


http://bridgewinners...-problem-13090/
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#43 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2016-July-20, 13:34

View Postbillw55, on 2016-July-20, 11:57, said:

Sure, but that is near the worst hand that partner could have, and 4M is probably only down 1 (we have a decent map of the high cards). I think 4M will have play fairly often, and this is vul at IMPs after all.


This seems backwards - any points partner has are under opener's, so (while I agree it's a highly cherry-picked hand) it looks more likely to be three off to me - and chances of being doubled are quite high when we bid to the four-level with this few points and things aren't friendly.
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#44 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2016-July-20, 13:39

A question for the 3S bidders. If it comes back to you in 4D, are you letting them have it or are you bidding 4H?
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

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#45 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2016-July-20, 13:44

View PostJinksy, on 2016-July-20, 13:34, said:

This seems backwards - any points partner has are under opener's, so (while I agree it's a highly cherry-picked hand) it looks more likely to be three off to me - and chances of being doubled are quite high when we bid to the four-level with this few points and things aren't friendly.

OK, I guess there is an extra heart loser there I wasn't considering.

Then again, when opener is strong he won't always double. He may opt to bid on, or even pass - his partner has shown weakness after all.

So several things have to happen for this to blow up: partner has to have the wrong hand, they have to double us, and sit for it, and beat it more than one. It feels like we will make game more often than this parlay happens .. maybe I am too optimistic. The BW poll does carry a lot of weight.
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#46 User is offline   jogs 

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Posted 2016-July-20, 14:09

View Post1eyedjack, on 2016-July-20, 13:39, said:

A question for the 3S bidders. If it comes back to you in 4D, are you letting them have it or are you bidding 4H?

Don't think your scenario will happen. They have 10 or 11 diamonds. Think North was setting a trap by passing 3X.
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#47 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2016-July-20, 15:56

View Postbillw55, on 2016-July-20, 13:44, said:

So several things have to happen for this to blow up: partner has to have the wrong hand, they have to double us, and sit for it, and beat it more than one. It feels like we will make game more often than this parlay happens .. maybe I am too optimistic. The BW poll does carry a lot of weight.


That's a worst-case scenario, but there are plenty of other bad ones - the obvious one being 3 is making 9 tricks (~6 IMPs away). But we could also drift an extra trick off (~3 IMPs away), get doubled in 4M and go one off (~8 IMPs away), push partner into overbidding (he might not play us for much, but he's unlikely to play us for a hand this weak, since even if we can have it by specific agreement we're comparatively unlikely to) when we would have been in game anyway (~13 IMPs away), and various less likely scenarios (eg pushing them into 5=).

Obviously I can't know what this adds up to in expectation, but some bad result is hardly unlikely.
The "4 is a transfer to 4" award goes to Jinksy - PhilKing
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#48 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2016-July-20, 18:10

View PostJinksy, on 2016-July-20, 11:05, said:

What does partner do on this auction with eg Qxx AQx xx AQJxx?




nothing

if partner has a doubleton diamond, he must have a significantly stronger (and more major orientated) hand than this.

if he's only got a singleton diamond, the opps will be bidding on anyway.
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#49 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2016-July-21, 01:21

View Postjogs, on 2016-July-20, 14:09, said:

Don't think your scenario will happen. They have 10 or 11 diamonds. Think North was setting a trap by passing 3X.

Good cop-out. Well played.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
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#50 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2016-July-21, 01:43

full hand

{comments}

"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#51 User is offline   kuhchung 

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Posted 2016-July-21, 11:31

heh I wonder what happens on the actual hand if we bid 3S
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#52 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2016-July-21, 12:31

View Postkuhchung, on 2016-July-21, 11:31, said:

heh I wonder what happens on the actual hand if we bid 3S


You play there.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

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#53 User is offline   Thiros 

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Posted 2016-July-22, 16:16

I would bid 3 at the table, knowing full well that it could work out badly, so that I don't have to worry about partner driving to who knows where. However, if partner is AWARE that the range for a 4 bid here by us could include this hand, it becomes the superior bid. The first-rate partnerships have this covered in their expansive repertoire of situations discussed in advance (which, regrettably, has been hard for me to do).

To illustrate the edge in the 4 bid when interpreted as intended, give partner a hand within expectation range, say, QJx AQJx Kx AQxx, and opener Ax Kxx A10xxx Kxx. Now 3 is going down on the singleton heart lead and 4 makes in neat fashion.
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